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Old 22-03-2017, 11:46 AM   #51
TonyG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by proud View Post

On a blog someone asked him about chronic back pain and this is his response:


"sympathize, because I have had similar back pain over the past 20 years. The thing that has made the most difference for me is that about 4 years ago I began diligently stretching my hamstrings every time I train. I have used back extensions, reverse hypers, and deadlifts all successfully to rehab this problem, but since I have been stretching my hamstrings I can get my back in the correct position to lift with much greater reliability, and have had FAR less trouble than I used to have with my back. Hip flexors are NOT the trouble -- if your hamstrings are tight you cannot get into proper lumbar extension. Give it a try, and you'll know in a couple of weeks. "


Uh...
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This bloke is describing his experience re: LBP.
Which part/s perturb you the most?

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Old 22-03-2017, 01:23 PM   #52
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For me there are two big hiccups in that statement.

Tight hamstrings limiting lumbar extension? even the most biomechanically oriented person should know that if hamstrings are THAT tight that the spine can't flex - they.can. not. walk.

Second, he had already "successfully" rehabbed the problem.....but still needed those hammies stretched to have "FAR less trouble". I wonder what successful means to him.
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Old 22-03-2017, 05:51 PM   #53
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His "HS tightness" became his reassuring, pat on the back, positive feedback loop that his brain could check in on and get reassured his exercise routine would be safe and successful. For some its a foam roll, some a manip, some needling.......add it to the list.

Just my take on it from a far.
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Old 22-03-2017, 06:39 PM   #54
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Quote:
Tight hamstrings limiting lumbar extension? even the most biomechanically oriented person should know that if hamstrings are THAT tight that the spine can't flex - they.can. not. walk.
Bas,
I think he meant he was not able to maintain an adequate neutral lumbar spinal position while performing deadlifts. Maybe he thought his HS were so tight that he was starting back extensions and reverse hypers in an excessively flexed position? I don't know- that doesn't make much sense. Like you said, if your HS were that tight, you wouldn't be able to walk.
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Old 23-03-2017, 03:41 AM   #55
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In Rippetoe’s statement, he ignores the CNS and instead puts forward a biomechanical model as the catalyst for his improvement.

Who’s to say that his actions/behaviour (hammy stretching) did not create some kind of safe platform for him to perform; even though he probably doesn’t see it that way? His experience is unique to him, after all.

FWIW I don’t prescribe conventional stretching because I see it as the CNS being bullied by its host. Unless it’s a spontaneous movement, in which case I say go with it.

John, I imagine Rippetoe is reffering to passive insufficiency in straight leg dead lifts.

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Old 23-03-2017, 10:37 AM   #56
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If you listen or work with powerlifters or those trying to achieve absolute strength, many will talk about pain. While their self management or suggestions for rehab and treatment may not pass muster, they typically take an active, self efficacious approach. For that I have to give them credit. Its better than many in the "rehab" profession.

I also like that Rip calls out the outpatient rehab setting. To me, he does have a point.
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Old 28-03-2017, 07:16 PM   #57
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Ugh,

I just got done reading the EIM blog as well as Colleen and Adriaan's response. Suffice it to say, and like everyone else, I'm pretty disappointed. Actually, probably a little pissed. I've spoken with Adriaan numerous times. I consider him a mentor in many respects as he was the first to introduce me to Pain Ed (TNE as he calls it) that completely changed the way I practice forever. He is a very significant positive influence for me because of this as well as numerous other insightful discussions I've had with him in person and online. I even got certified through ISPI with a CSMT cert because of his strong influence.

But the manipulation teachings as well as the current TDN crap has really left me feeling pretty empty in regards to his courses and discussions. Others have made excellent points here in the way the evidence argument appears to be framed, i.e. find a kewl catchy trendy tool, get in a territorial piss match with other pseudoscience fields over it, grab it with all it's glory and plant a freaking flag on top of it, oh, and then let's try and find some valid evidence to support it. Oh wait, there isn't much? But the outcomes tho.........

The other thing is, I was a bit concerned when ISPI joined EIM from the get go for this very reason as well as a blatantly obvious monetary influence being gained with these cont. ed courses (i.e. TDN). I would love to believe this hasn't biased Adriaan and his instructors, but I'm trying not to be too idiotic and naive anymore.

I truly believe that Adriaan/ISPI believes he is trying to improve our field. I just feel the course he has chosen has moved a little away from his original Pain science Moseley influence and the biopsychosocial model of pain. It is not the most direct course and at times it is counterproductive.

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Old 28-03-2017, 10:25 PM   #58
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My frustration with Adriaan seems along similar lines. In fact, my frustration with the EIM crew in general is along similar lines.

That being...I expected more from them.

I attended the manipalooza in 2010 and was wildly impressed with how "business like" the course was.

So well run and organized I could hardly believe it.

Yet the content...left me with a sinking feeling.

Were these guys that I held on a pedestal for the excellent strides they had made in terms of helping uncover mechanisms...becoming businessmen/women first and foremost?

Then along came the TDN EIM collaboration and I grow ever more dis-heartened.

Then Adriaan comes up with what amounted to one of the worst crafted (in my opinion) responses I might have read in a while in defense of TDN and...well...my skepticism grows.
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Old 29-03-2017, 12:29 AM   #59
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proud,

"Content" and "business" are very, very loosely related. How a course is advertised is far more powerful than previously thought. Adriaan has become little more than a shill for EIM.

That's just an opinion, and Adriaan might not know it has happened.

I don't think he visits.
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