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Old 02-09-2011, 01:38 PM   #1
Barrett Dorko
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Default Where to? II

Quote:
Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it.

Ayn Rand
It’s really hard to beat a good story, even if we know it couldn’t possibly be true. I just got another missive from the "fascial community”. (Those are “scare quotes” by the way. Be afraid, be very afraid)

Quote:
Restricted fascia is full of pockets. When the tissue starts to release, these pockets are opened up. When these pockets open, the sensations that were trapped in them are released. These sensations may be very mild and brief, or they may be extremely intense and last longer. The sensations can be just as intense as when the trauma first occurred.
I gather from this that those who “believe” in the fascia actually think that sensation and memory are “things” that exist in some sort of discreet form. After all, they can be “trapped.” Kind of like Tinkerbell in that jar.

Hey, I might be on to something here.
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Old 02-09-2011, 02:17 PM   #2
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Restricted fascia is full of pockets. When the tissue starts to release, these pockets are opened up. When these pockets open, the sensations that were trapped in them are released. These sensations may be very mild and brief, or they may be extremely intense and last longer. The sensations can be just as intense as when the trauma first occurred.
...or maybe its simply a nociceptive pain induced by a nociceptive stimulus when the clinician digs their fingers into the skin??? The variability of mild vs. intense depends on how threatening this dig is???
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Old 02-09-2011, 02:40 PM   #3
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Joe,

The amount of threat perceived is an extremely important and remarkably variable factor - somehing those using heavy pressure seem not to understand.

I really like the Tinkerbell analogy, especially since it just came to me as I drove yesterday. I'm sure my unconscious had been working on it for a while. Think of the audience's reaction to her "death" in the play.
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Old 02-09-2011, 02:46 PM   #4
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Agreed...
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Old 02-09-2011, 03:12 PM   #5
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Dear Myofascial Therapist,

Whenever you release my fascia, I feel like my pockets are "closing up."(Redirected scare quotes)

Nick
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Old 02-09-2011, 03:40 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrett Dorko View Post
It’s really hard to beat a good story, even if we know it couldn’t possibly be true. I just got another missive from the "fascial community”. (Those are “scare quotes” by the way. Be afraid, be very afraid)



I gather from this that those who “believe” in the fascia actually think that sensation and memory are “things” that exist in some sort of discreet form. After all, they can be “trapped.” Kind of like Tinkerbell in that jar.

Hey, I might be on to something here.
Barrett,

Where did that scary quote come from?
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Old 02-09-2011, 03:49 PM   #7
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Dear Myofascial Therapist,

Whenever you release my fascia, I feel like my pockets are "closing up."(Redirected scare quotes)

Nick


Here's another:

Dear myofascial therapist,

Whenever you release my fascia, I feel like my pockets are "closing up." Now I'm concerned that some of them will close up too fast (.. like, before all the bad stuff can get out/be released). Then it might turn to cancer or something. I guess I would need acupuncture then. But I'm afraid of needles. So I think I should go back to see the doctor and see if my fascia can be removed. Then I'll feel safe again. Thanks for your help though - you taught me an AMAZING amount of stuff you learned at that third fascia conference you went to.

Diane
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Old 02-09-2011, 04:05 PM   #8
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Barrett, your metaphor with Tinkerbell is an excellent one on so many levels, yes you are on to something.
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Old 02-09-2011, 05:08 PM   #9
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Richard,

I am sent these things by sources that prefer to remain anonymous. This was written by someone very active and highly respected in the MFR community and it originates in ALL of the courses taught by a certain individual whom I simply cannot name.

I suspect you know why.
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Old 02-09-2011, 05:42 PM   #10
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A quick search on fascia and memory yielded these articles. Old songs conjure up memories of events associated with the songs, but isn't that memory in the CNS? Do walled off energy cysts show on MRI? Cancer is old unresolved memory? Seems to me fear is being preyed upon here. PT has become PT Barnum.


http://www.massage-research.com/blog/?p=161

http://www.massagetoday.com/archives/2003/08/09.html

http://www.mindandbeyond.net/serarticles.asp

http://www.freedomfrombodymemory.com...mr_phenom.html

Deb
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Old 02-09-2011, 07:29 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diane View Post


Here's another:

Dear myofascial therapist,

Whenever you release my fascia, I feel like my pockets are "closing up." Now I'm concerned that some of them will close up too fast (.. like, before all the bad stuff can get out/be released). Then it might turn to cancer or something. I guess I would need acupuncture then. But I'm afraid of needles. So I think I should go back to see the doctor and see if my fascia can be removed. Then I'll feel safe again. Thanks for your help though - you taught me an AMAZING amount of stuff you learned at that third fascia conference you went to.

Diane

Diane,

This is especially for you:

http://app1.unmc.edu/publicaffairs/t...cfm?match=2722

this one too!

http://articles.latimes.com/2001/apr/08/news/mn-48381

enjoy!

Last edited by Richard Finn; 02-09-2011 at 07:33 PM. Reason: added second ref
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Old 02-09-2011, 07:48 PM   #12
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Wow!
I thought I was just making stuff up.

There seems to be something really deep in peoples' "self" modules, that expects to have to be punished, from the inside by pain or from the outside by someone inflicting it.

By the way, I got the same amount of shoulder range back as this woman did, without having to travel anywhere except around inside my own head, and what I've learned about pain so far.
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Old 02-09-2011, 08:26 PM   #13
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Default He was here.

Dr. Nystrom called me many years ago. He wanted to develop a working relationship. He explained his technique. My reply was to ask how he handled the scar tissue that would be created by his procedure and the subsequent need for further surgery. He said he had done the surgery to his secretary and handed the phone to her. He did not want the conversation to go where I was heading!

The next week two of his "successful" patients came in to see me off of the street (no referral). Their pain had returned and they were going to schedule a second surgery. You can imagine my reply. Shortly afterword he moved away. He sat up shop elsewhere...
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Old 02-09-2011, 08:39 PM   #14
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Wow, Richard, you hang out in some strange places to get this stuff. Or maybe I don't hang out in "normal" life nearly enough. Either way, I feel sorry for people who think they need to be opened up for "pain" problems, and very much dislike the delusion about opening people up for "pain" problems. Whether it be by scalpel, acupuncture needle, elbow or any other kind of instrument, blunt or sharp. The only implement necessary most of the time is Occam's Chainsaw and the only thing needing "opening" is stupid ideology.
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Old 02-09-2011, 10:17 PM   #15
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Dr. Nystrom is in Omaha, NE practicing at University of Nebraska Medical Center (UNMC). Omaha is 90 miles straight south on I-29 from where I live. About 5 years ago I turned down taking the physical therapy manager position for the UNMC hospital inpatient and outpatient areas. I can see I'm glad I did, not sure what I would do having to work with someone like that on a regular basis?
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Old 03-09-2011, 07:17 AM   #16
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Quote:
Restricted fascia is full of pockets. When the tissue starts to release, these pockets are opened up. When these pockets open, the sensations that were trapped in them are released. These sensations may be very mild and brief, or they may be extremely intense and last longer. The sensations can be just as intense as when the trauma first occurred.
Where do you even begin with someone like that? They are so far out in an imaginary world that they are convinced is real. There are so many assumptions, one piled on top of the other, and none of them based on anything we know.

It's a moments like this that I think, well, you know, I can't point to the evidence that my teacher said was there, but at least we were talking about real physiological processes known to occur in the body. That's not a bad place to start.

****

I have not really kept up with the fascia folks. I took a class with Barnes a number of years ago. I wasn't real impressed. Zhenya, my teacher, - very Eastern European, very blunt - was once asked what she thought of myofascial release and she blurted out, "Oh God, it's so boring!" That was my reaction, too. I didn't have the patience. I've used it a little sometimes. Sometimes, stretching can feel good, can feel right. I'm okay with that.

Lately, I hear a lot from the fascial folks and they make an awful lot of claims. I wondered if there were any truth to any of it but two things have convinced me that they are not worth my attention: 1) I read an article by the Big Name Teacher and it was full of so many obviously inflated claims (like, you as a practitioner will experience life-changing transformation doing this work, that kind of stuff) that he totally lost credibility with me and 2) the proponent of it, when questioned or presented with evidence, respond, not with evidence, but with emotion - usually anger and rage and insult - that it leads me to believe they have no evidence.

So, I suspect it is all made up and not even that good of a story. If it were more plausible, it might deserve some consideration but it starts out from a place that has no foundation in what we know and then takes off from there.

I'm afraid, though, that (possibly because MTs and PTs are required to get CEUs) that huge empires are being built on teaching questionable personal theories and accepted as fact by gullible people who seem to question nothing. But we already knew that. I thought this was mostly a problem in my profession (massage). Did not know the rest of you had to put up with it so much, too. I assumed you all were a little more grounded in reality. More dearly held beliefs dashed on the rocks.

Next I'll find out there's no tooth fairy.
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Old 03-09-2011, 07:27 AM   #17
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Where do you even begin with someone like that? They are so far out in an imaginary world that they are convinced is real. There are so many assumptions, one piled on top of the other, and none of them based on anything we know.

It's a moments like this that I think, well, you know, I can't point to the evidence that my teacher said was there, but at least we were talking about real physiological processes known to occur in the body. That's not a bad place to start.

****

I have not really kept up with the fascia folks. I took a class with Barnes a number of years ago. I wasn't real impressed. Zhenya, my teacher, - very Eastern European, very blunt - was once asked what she thought of myofascial release and she blurted out, "Oh God, it's so boring!" That was my reaction, too. I didn't have the patience. I've used it a little sometimes. Sometimes, stretching can feel good, can feel right. I'm okay with that.

Lately, I hear a lot from the fascial folks and they make an awful lot of claims. I wondered if there were any truth to any of it but two things have convinced me that they are not worth my attention: 1) I read an article by the Big Name Teacher and it was full of so many obviously inflated claims (like, you as a practitioner will experience life-changing transformation doing this work, that kind of stuff) that he totally lost credibility with me and 2) the proponent of it, when questioned or presented with evidence, respond, not with evidence, but with emotion - usually anger and rage and insult - that it leads me to believe they have no evidence.

So, I suspect it is all made up and not even that good of a story. If it were more plausible, it might deserve some consideration but it starts out from a place that has no foundation in what we know and then takes off from there.

I'm afraid, though, that (possibly because MTs and PTs are required to get CEUs) that huge empires are being built on teaching questionable personal theories and accepted as fact by gullible people who seem to question nothing. But we already knew that. I thought this was mostly a problem in my profession (massage). Did not know the rest of you had to put up with it so much, too. I assumed you all were a little more grounded in reality. More dearly held beliefs dashed on the rocks.

Next I'll find out there's no tooth fairy.
Oh mygosh. Such a breath of fresh air. Your suspicions are correct. There is no tooth fairy. Just a ton of tooth fairy science.

I love the way your mentor sounds - she sounds like she had a great Occam's BS detector.
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“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

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Old 03-09-2011, 01:27 PM   #18
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does anyone have Hall's original power point on TFS?

ANdy
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Old 03-09-2011, 03:36 PM   #19
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Here it is.
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"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

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Old 03-09-2011, 10:19 PM   #20
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thank you Diane, it seems to be getting harder to find as links change/websites evolve. Useful to have a copy for reference

regards

ANdy
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Old 05-09-2011, 11:38 PM   #21
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Oh mygosh. Such a breath of fresh air. Your suspicions are correct. There is no tooth fairy. Just a ton of tooth fairy science.

I love the way your mentor sounds - she sounds like she had a great Occam's BS detector.
I love Hall's TFS and have retold her story to many MTs who keep pointing to studies. Here's a typical one: nurses do Reiki on patients. Patients feel better. Therefore, Reiki "works." No attempt to verify the basic premise of Reiki, that some universal life force exists and they can channel it, no comparison to patients just getting attention. However, Reiki practitioners continually point to these studies as evidence to support their work.

BTW, I *am* a "Reiki Master" and have a certificate to prove it. I was at a conference, it was an easy 2 CEUs, the alternative was not interesting, and I can now speak about what they do from first hand experience.

Zhenya was *very* blunt. I loved it but some people were startled by it.

She had her flaws. She was very orthodox, very convinced of the validity and supremacy of what she taught. That's okay. I understood and accepted that about her, even if I didn't automatically accept that attitude myself. As I've admitted, I don't have access to research that she claimed existed so I have to take that on faith. However, what she taught did not contradict anything I know about physiology. What I am learning about neuroscience supports many things she said. And most importantly, she did not expect us to take anything on faith, to believe the unbelievable. She taught principles and method and then said, "Don't just trust me, experience this for yourself." Now, I know about bias and understand and accept that, but the experience of it is pretty predictable. So, it's a model that works well for me.

Although she taught hundreds of MTs over the years, you still rarely hear about her or Russian Massage. I don't think most of her students really practice it or understand it beyond the most superficial level. She didn't build an empire or encourage a personality cult. She was very human, very real, and a lot of fun. She taught a way of thinking about manual therapy that's different from how it is thought about here. I think she made a great contribution and perhaps now it's my job to continue it and further it.

I'm sad she's gone. I wish I could tell her right now about all the exciting things I'm learning about the CNS. But I also have a freedom to bring my own understanding to the work, which might be compromised if I were teaching on her behalf, as I was before.
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Old 06-09-2011, 12:10 AM   #22
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Hi Alice!

I just read some of Zhenya's comments on shin splints from her Running Injuries, Part 2.

It's sad she died so young.

I keep thinking that, someday in the future, we'll look back (or more likely our children will look back) on the history of cancer treatment and say:

"How crude we were even in 2011. The best we could offer was cutting it out, burning it out with radiation, or shrinking it with powerful toxic chemicals. All of which were invasive and devastating."

For now...it's seems to be the best we can do.
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Old 06-09-2011, 05:28 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by norton View Post
A quick search on fascia and memory yielded these articles. Old songs conjure up memories of events associated with the songs, but isn't that memory in the CNS? Do walled off energy cysts show on MRI? Cancer is old unresolved memory? Seems to me fear is being preyed upon here. PT has become PT Barnum.


http://www.massage-research.com/blog/?p=161

http://www.massagetoday.com/archives/2003/08/09.html

http://www.mindandbeyond.net/serarticles.asp

http://www.freedomfrombodymemory.com...mr_phenom.html

Deb

Energy cysts? Good grief. People really believe this? Are we living in the Middle Ages?

I'm going to be picky but "mindandbeyond.net" is subtitled "The story of Little Jimmy." Besides that I hate it when people talk about "Little Jimmy," the rest of the story goes on to talk about "Little Johnny." This guy can't even keep straight who he's talking about.

I was talking to a quantum physics professor one night. He said he feared that there might be two types of people in the world and that some people might be impossible to reach with reason, that they were perhaps constitutionally incapable of it.

I totally understand the world of imagination, metaphor, myth, etc. In fact, I love it. But I think my rational mind is pretty functional, too, and I understand the difference.

I want to believe that if things are explained carefully, stripped down to basics, that anyone should be capable of understanding. I could be wrong. I accept some people will disagree. I just don't understand a complete lack of grasping basic concepts. I guess it doesn't matter if I understand it or not, I just need to accept it.

Last edited by Alice Sanvito; 06-09-2011 at 05:29 AM. Reason: fixed grammar
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