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Hello from a middle-aged layperson

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  • Hello from a middle-aged layperson

    Moral: Never send a research scientist a patient/client intake form with odd-seeming jargon on it.

    The Tale: I'm a fifty-something research scientist who's noticed loss of strength and function in many settings over the last few years. I'm not an athlete, but I'm a homeowner and a gardener; I want to be able to carry my half of a sheet of plywood, wrangle garbage cans full of homemade compost, and dig a lot of dandelions without cramping up and/or aching.

    Many years ago a physical therapist told me my body tended to use the wrong muscles to do various jobs; a massage therapist (PUSH therapy) has told me the same. Pilates has been suggested as a good thing for me to try, but then 2 professionals I trust suggested a particular physical trainer. We talked last week, he emailed me some forms to fill out before my in-person consultation and assessment tomorrow ... and one question was, "Do you own any Z-Health/FMS training products?"

    It turns out that if you google "Z-Health", and read the site, and then you google "Z-Health review", you end up here!

    I've spent the last 6 hours combing this site and its links. I've cancelled my in-person consultation and assessment with the Z-Health/FMS/DNS/Chek trainer, and now am trying to get some idea of what might be a good avenue to pursue. I appreciate all the resources here, but will also take suggestions!

    - Leslie

  • #2
    Leslie,

    You really shouldn't read Titanic III or any of the Sunday series preceding it.

    I'm glad you're here. Now that you've read some of this, it strikes me that you might have noticed that the scientific method hasn't been used as anticipated.

    Would you agree?
    Barrett L. Dorko

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi Leslie!
      First, "using the wrong muscles" is a very big stretch for anyone to conclude - and I doubt it.
      Second, if you find yourself cramping or aching, there are many factors that could be at play here, and it is impossible to provide any deep advice regarding your concern.
      One thing I CAN say is that you could get into a regular yoga practice (a yoga flow) for helping awareness of what your body needs and attain some physical goals.

      A mix of flexibility and strength are good things to pursue generally as we age (I am 65, so I feel comfortable using that word with you!).

      I would certainly not get into any extensive "programmes" that "target" specific postures, supposed "weaknesses" in muscle patterns - there is simply not enough in your history thus far to suggest you need that.
      We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin

      I suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
      Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

      Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

      We don't need a body to feel a body. Ronald Melzack

      Comment


      • #4
        Bas,

        You've forgotten to mention that postures and weaknesses might be blamed for any complaint of pain.

        After all, the therapist (whomever they might be) knows more than the patient, and the patient is driven by many things.

        Just thought I'd say that.
        Barrett L. Dorko

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi Leslie, welcome to Somasimple.
          Any of Paul Hodges research in the last 10 years or so (and he is a good researcher who has killed a lot of wrong ideas, even a few he himself once held dear) indicates that the brain uses different muscles (motor control strategy) every time it does a movement. Every single time.
          Even if the same action were repeated (identically, to an outside observer) a hundred times.
          Diane
          www.dermoneuromodulation.com
          SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
          HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
          Neurotonics PT Teamblog
          Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
          Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
          @PainPhysiosCan
          WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
          @WCPTPTPN
          Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

          @dfjpt
          SomaSimple on Facebook
          @somasimple

          "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

          “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

          “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

          "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

          "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Diane View Post
            Hi Leslie, welcome to Somasimple.
            Any of Paul Hodges research in the last 10 years or so (and he is a good researcher who has killed a lot of wrong ideas, even a few he himself once held dear) indicates that the brain uses different muscles (motor control strategy) every time it does a movement. Every single time.
            Even if the same action were repeated (identically, to an outside observer) a hundred times.
            Hey Diane.

            Could you elaborate on that and its implications? I'm not sure I quite understand your point.

            Comment


            • #7
              Motor control is deployed differently every time.
              I think the exact same movement was standing and raising an arm, then lowering it.
              Diane
              www.dermoneuromodulation.com
              SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
              HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
              Neurotonics PT Teamblog
              Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
              Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
              @PainPhysiosCan
              WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
              @WCPTPTPN
              Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

              @dfjpt
              SomaSimple on Facebook
              @somasimple

              "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

              “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

              “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

              "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

              "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Diane View Post
                Motor control is deployed differently every time.
                I think the exact same movement was standing and raising an arm, then lowering it.
                Oh, I got that part.

                What I meant was in the context of the TS's question. She laid out the premise that she has been losing some function and strength over the years and basicly asked what she could do to improve her physical ability to garden, carry wood and dig. Then she mentioned that she's been told (I guess incorrectly by your statement) that she is using the "wrong" muscles.

                Whether or not the body uses variations of motor strategy to do the same task, what practical implications does that have for the TS? Are you arguing that there is no use in training task oriented because the body uses different strategies? I'm not sure I understood the point. If that was the practical application, how does sport specific, task specific and physical mastery training work and why?

                Thanks.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Sano View Post

                  What I meant was in the context of the TS's question. She laid out the premise that she has been losing some function and strength over the years and basicly asked what she could do to improve her physical ability to garden, carry wood and dig. Then she mentioned that she's been told (I guess incorrectly by your statement) that she is using the "wrong" muscles.
                  My reply was in response to the idea of "wrong" muscle use.

                  Whether or not the body uses variations of motor strategy to do the same task, what practical implications does that have for the TS? Are you arguing that there is no use in training task oriented because the body uses different strategies? I'm not sure I understood the point. If that was the practical application, how does sport specific, task specific and physical mastery training work and why?

                  Thanks.
                  I don't know that it does, particularly.
                  Diane
                  www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                  SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                  HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                  Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                  Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                  Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                  @PainPhysiosCan
                  WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                  @WCPTPTPN
                  Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                  @dfjpt
                  SomaSimple on Facebook
                  @somasimple

                  "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                  “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                  “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                  "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                  "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Diane View Post
                    I don't know that it does, particularly.
                    You don't know that training a specific movement improves your muscular capability to do that movement? Or you don't know that the body uses different motor strategies?

                    If the same movement used different muscles to the point that you wouldn't bother targeting any of them specificly, then how would it be possible to predict specific hypertrohpy with certain exercises? Or get EMG readings that would be consistent with the exercise or task you are doing?

                    I am not doubting what you are saying, and it sounds very interesting, I'm just wondering about the practical implications and how it bridges what we can predict. Trying to get my head around it.

                    If someone wants to improve their physical prowess, and ability to do housework and gardening, I'd like to think there are options available to them.
                    Last edited by Sano; 17-06-2017, 11:55 PM.

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