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  • amacs
    replied
    Welcome Curious ONe

    I had hoped this would be a place for critical thinking and interesting discussion
    You will discover it is exactly that. Unfortunately that is rarely a comfortable experience and many professional shibboleths are put to the sword. If you can get past the innate sense of vulnerability such scrutiny engenders you will find exactly what you seek.

    It is helpful to be aware that some profession specific language can be value laden and will, if so, attract questions.

    regards

    ANdy
    (who frequently commits tpyos)
    Last edited by amacs; 29-08-2012, 11:59 PM.

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  • Greg Lehman
    replied
    Thanks for your great reply John,

    You wrote:

    don't see how conveying to a patient like this that rubbing or pressing on a particular spot on their foot, thereby adjusting some reflex arc, in order to affect a pain in their head is ultimately of any value to either the patient or society in general. In fact, I think it's harmful to both.
    I hope it didn't come across that I was defending this model of care (the one above). I was only trying to question myself and those of us that use the model that you briefly described. Questioning what we do doesn't equate to supporting reflexology. We are kind of on two separate discussions here and just talking around each other since I agree with everything you have written.

    Greg

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  • ste5e
    replied
    Hi and welcome CO, please stick at it despite the prickles.
    Kind thoughts,
    Steve

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  • Curious One
    replied
    Originally posted by nari View Post
    I also cannot find anything unwelcoming in the welcome forum.
    CO, can you give an example of what you mean by unwelcoming?

    Nari
    Perhaps I didn't "lurk" long enough. But, I've never been one for lurking. Maybe I'll just have to work on that.

    Normally to be "welcoming" is to provide a kind greeting. It usually involves pleasant courtesy.

    Some of my opinions surrounding this have to do with an overall feeling (my perception) of how a chunk of the questions were posed to me in this thread. Sure, there was some courtesy, but to me, much of it felt off-kilter and veiled. Or, maybe my perceptions were just "off".

    I don't mind being asked about the way in which I practice or why I came here (no "agenda" on my end); I just expected more friendliness in an intial meeting. And, I believe I read once, the more people expect, the more susceptible they are to pain.

    In my opinion, I can only describe the feeling as an overall lack of warmth in this "Welcome" thread, that seems quite different than when I read... http://www.somasimple.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13585.

    I seem to have based my thoughts about what appeared a much warmer reception (note the other thread - and yeah... I obviously should have lurked and read more of them).

    But, again, I didn't take the time to get a good feel for the personalities of this particular forum. Such is life. I'll do my best to try to keep to myself for a while, unless I see something that may warrant some kind of useful information coming from my own knowledge bank.


    Oh, and thanks, gilbert... that comment with the ! helps. Of course, 92 posts may be just because I am too chatty and don't know how to shut up for my own good.
    Last edited by Curious One; 29-08-2012, 10:00 PM. Reason: -to add an additional thought & correct a typo

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  • gilbert
    replied
    Welcome, CO.

    I think you should be quite pleased; as not everyone's introductory thread in the welcome forum gets up to 92 posts!

    Seriously, there is so much to be learned in the different discussions and articles available here I can't even begin to say how valuable it has been for my practice over the last few years.

    Leave a comment:


  • Barrett Dorko
    replied
    Nari asked what was "unwelcoming" while I slept and I thought about that while I shaved.

    For many, every question regarding what they've chosen to believe and do is unwelcomed. This is human, and would be acceptable here if a third person wasn't involved.

    But they're always involved.

    Leave a comment:


  • Simon Thakur
    replied
    Originally posted by Greg Lehman View Post
    Hi john,



    Do you have any research showing a robust, long term positive effect for ANY intervention for persistent pain problems? We are far from establishing long term and powerful improvements with the treatments within the neuroscience revolution framework.

    Greg
    :clap1:

    Leave a comment:


  • rkathryn
    replied
    Welcome to SomaSimple Curious! I also know Curious as a colleague, not in person, but online for many years.

    Curious, reading through these posts I haven't read anything that is unwelcoming. As was mentioned before, when we have our ideas questioned, that can shut us off. I remember when I first came here as a lurker in 2007- I thought these people were really jerks and didn't like massage therapists.

    After deciding to open MY mind for a change, I realized that I was only reacting defensively which made it seem like everything was an attack. Once I realized that no one was attacking ME personally, I've learned so much from this forum.

    The most important thing is to set aside any agenda. This forum isn't like other forums where one can just post their opinions- and then others reply with their own opinions and then everyone bashes about their opinions for a bit.

    Rather, on this forum, someone posts their theories and/or ideas and and then their post is deconstructed and broken down in order so the readers may understand why the person has that opinion, idea, theory, whatever in order to take the idea further.This forum is more about explaining why you have the thoughts, ideas and beliefs you have and then tearing it up to understand it better. I've never seen that before on other forums and I've benefited more from this than any other board I've ever been on.

    There is some really great thinking going on here and it would be a shame if you left. There are a number of massage therapists here and also a few chiros on this board.

    Caro was spot on with this bit-

    Hi Curious and welcome.

    I too am a massage therapist. Karen lines (another MT) gave some good advice in post #13. Take your time, give yourself time.

    It'll kind of go like this :

    :angry:, :cry:, :sad:, , , , and finally

    :teeth:

    Happy reading.

    Leave a comment:


  • John W
    replied
    Greg,
    Staying within the context of this thread, what I was attempting to strongly convey is that what we're doing now- all of us- is either not working or we don't really know if it works or not. However, some of us have a sound theory or a deep model on which to base what we do, while others seem to rely on what they "enjoy" doing or what the patient wants done to them.

    I'm going to place my bets on those who have the superior, more defensible explanatory model, which, based on what I've read, appears to be one that supports building internal locus, adopting an interactor stance. We know that the most troublesome patients- the ones who cost the system the most and still don't get much better- lack the confidence that they will ever get better and this is a huge stumbling block to their recovery. Many studies have demonstrated how strong a predictor of poor outcome this is. Therefore, we should, at least, avoid treatment that threaten internal locus/self-efficacy.

    I don't see how conveying to a patient like this that rubbing or pressing on a particular spot on their foot, thereby adjusting some reflex arc, in order to affect a pain in their head is ultimately of any value to either the patient or society in general. In fact, I think it's harmful to both.

    Leave a comment:


  • Greg Lehman
    replied
    Hi John,

    I probably didn't miss your point, i more likely ignored it:teeth:

    I just felt like chewing on something you wrote and it was a good prompt for me to consider what "the key" was to long term improvements in chronic pain. When you write statements that are so strong it sounds, to me, that there is some very strong efficacy evidence behind treatments that restore an internal locus. It is not that strong and i think we should be cautious in statements like that. In respect to exercise i dont think that Lorimers work suggests that pain ed is superior to motor control exercises...he certainly has some papers published with Hodges supporting motor control exercises for decreases in pain in chronic pain sufferers.

    Maybe we can discuss in another thread. Reviewing Moseley would certainly be helpful to me.

    Greg

    Leave a comment:


  • Diane
    replied
    Originally posted by Anthony Distano View Post
    Do you have a reference for that? Love to have it in my office.
    I think it's probably this one, Combined physiotherapy and education is efficacious for chronic low back pain 2002.

    Here is a link to all papers Moseley is associated with to date. All are open access. Lorimer makes certain of that. :thumbs_up

    Leave a comment:


  • nari
    replied
    I also cannot find anything unwelcoming in the welcome forum.
    CO, can you give an example of what you mean by unwelcoming?

    Nari

    Leave a comment:


  • Anthony Distano
    replied
    I think the welcome page should have the following disclaimer:

    Warning: this forum is more addictive then Facebook.

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  • John W
    replied
    Greg,
    I think you missed my point. The sense I get from CO is that she thinks her operator mode of treatment is effective because she has lots of anecdotal evidence and she gets lots of referrals from other health care providers. The fact is, there is no evidence currently that any particular method is effective for the patients who are presenting the biggest challenge to our modern health care systems.

    The reason I come here on a regular basis is to try to learn how to incorporate the most current neuroscience information into my clinical practice so that the researchers and epidemiologists will begin to turn out some less grim statistics.

    However, if broad swathes of professional health care providers continue to embrace interventions, like reflexology, which lack a tenable theoretical foundation, then we might miss the opportunity to bring this information to fruition and our profession(s) will languish.

    Leave a comment:


  • Curious One
    replied
    Originally posted by proud View Post
    Actually Curious, I am uncertain what you have found to be unwelcoming as I meader through this thread.

    Indeed I see questions that I know are intended to lead somewhere simply by virtue of the fact that I have been reading/posting here for a while.

    How would you prefer to be welcomed?
    I believe I already mentioned this, but in case you missed it I'll add a reprint for easy reference:
    "It could just be that you all have been around each other so long, you expect that everyone takes you with the same grain of salt, but as a newbie, it is a tad overstimulating.

    <snip>

    I'm just thinking that being negative toward someone looking to learn more from you, probably isn't the best way to be an encouragement or to be "welcoming" in the "Welcome Section"."

    Leave a comment:

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