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  • #76
    What is it that Vincent is thinking at this moment??

    Maybe this?

    “There's something fascinating about seeing something you don't like at first but directly know you will love—in time. People are that way, all through life. You come against a personality, and it questions yours. You shy away but know there are gratifying secrets there, and the half-open door is often more exciting than the wide.”
    Attached Files

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Diane View Post
      Work by Moseley has shown the best long term outcomes are associated with pain education. The difference between pain ed and other kinds of interventions don't show up at first. At first all seem about as effective or ineffective. The trend lines really start to move apart at about 6 months down the road. This is old stuff, about 8 - 10 years ago.
      Do you have a reference for that? Love to have it in my office.
      Anthony C. Distano, MS, DC, DACRB
      Diplomate of the American Chiropractic Rehabilitation Board

      Comment


      • #78
        Hi Diane,

        Here is what Lorimer wrote about pain ed. In his post at the conversation website.

        The idea that an inaccurate understanding of chronic pain increases chronic pain begs the question – what happens if we correct that inaccurate piece of knowledge?

        We’ve been researching the answer to this for over a decade, and here’s some of what we’ve found:

        (i) Pain and disability reduce, not by much and not very quickly but they do;

        (ii) Activity-based treatments have better effects;

        (iii) Flare-ups reduce in their frequency and magnitude;

        (iv) Long-term outcomes of activity-based treatments are vast improvements.
        From my terrible recollection i believe that the original research was not all that robust. It is still lacking. This is what i was getting at with my question to John.

        Greg
        Greg Lehman BKin, MSc, DC, MScPT
        No letters allowed learned on weekends.
        Physiotherapist
        Chiropractor

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        • #79
          Here is a link to many of Lorimers papers.

          Again, the clinical efficacy is not that strong.:cry:

          http://bodyinmind.org/resources/journal-articles/
          Greg Lehman BKin, MSc, DC, MScPT
          No letters allowed learned on weekends.
          Physiotherapist
          Chiropractor

          Comment


          • #80
            I personally make no apologies for the manner posters here are questioned when they make claims and/or reveal preferences of method that they cannot defend.

            Often they've been practicing for years without having to do this.
            Barrett L. Dorko

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Curious One View Post
              And, yes, I do agree that it is getting close to the last thread I participate on at the rate this is going. I am wondering why people are even invited to join, at this rate.
              I figure you were just trying to be light in your response,

              Originally posted by Diane View Post
              People just turn up here, most of the time.
              but, just so you know what I was referencing, with a "please" even:


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              C.O. ( gender: ) - LMT, BS(Anatomy), DC
              Music Fog... pick a song to listen to... you can't go wrong.
              Need relaxation samples for your office? I have made a Deep Relaxation Massage Music Pandora Station and have others that may also be useful - about 8 massage music stations and about 49 other nifty options.

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              • #82
                Actually Curious, I am uncertain what you have found to be unwelcoming as I meader through this thread.

                Indeed I see questions that I know are intended to lead somewhere simply by virtue of the fact that I have been reading/posting here for a while.

                How would you prefer to be welcomed?

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by proud View Post
                  Actually Curious, I am uncertain what you have found to be unwelcoming as I meader through this thread.

                  Indeed I see questions that I know are intended to lead somewhere simply by virtue of the fact that I have been reading/posting here for a while.

                  How would you prefer to be welcomed?
                  I believe I already mentioned this, but in case you missed it I'll add a reprint for easy reference:
                  "It could just be that you all have been around each other so long, you expect that everyone takes you with the same grain of salt, but as a newbie, it is a tad overstimulating.

                  <snip>

                  I'm just thinking that being negative toward someone looking to learn more from you, probably isn't the best way to be an encouragement or to be "welcoming" in the "Welcome Section"."

                  C.O. ( gender: ) - LMT, BS(Anatomy), DC
                  Music Fog... pick a song to listen to... you can't go wrong.
                  Need relaxation samples for your office? I have made a Deep Relaxation Massage Music Pandora Station and have others that may also be useful - about 8 massage music stations and about 49 other nifty options.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Greg,
                    I think you missed my point. The sense I get from CO is that she thinks her operator mode of treatment is effective because she has lots of anecdotal evidence and she gets lots of referrals from other health care providers. The fact is, there is no evidence currently that any particular method is effective for the patients who are presenting the biggest challenge to our modern health care systems.

                    The reason I come here on a regular basis is to try to learn how to incorporate the most current neuroscience information into my clinical practice so that the researchers and epidemiologists will begin to turn out some less grim statistics.

                    However, if broad swathes of professional health care providers continue to embrace interventions, like reflexology, which lack a tenable theoretical foundation, then we might miss the opportunity to bring this information to fruition and our profession(s) will languish.
                    John Ware, PT
                    Fellow of the American Academy of Orthopedic Manual Physical Therapists
                    "Nothing can bring a man peace but the triumph of principles." -R.W. Emerson
                    “If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things. If language be not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot
                    be carried on to success.” -The Analects of Confucius, Book 13, Verse 3

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      I think the welcome page should have the following disclaimer:

                      Warning: this forum is more addictive then Facebook.
                      Anthony C. Distano, MS, DC, DACRB
                      Diplomate of the American Chiropractic Rehabilitation Board

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        I also cannot find anything unwelcoming in the welcome forum.
                        CO, can you give an example of what you mean by unwelcoming?

                        Nari

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Anthony Distano View Post
                          Do you have a reference for that? Love to have it in my office.
                          I think it's probably this one, Combined physiotherapy and education is efficacious for chronic low back pain 2002.

                          Here is a link to all papers Moseley is associated with to date. All are open access. Lorimer makes certain of that. :thumbs_up
                          Diane
                          www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                          SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                          HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                          Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                          Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                          Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                          @PainPhysiosCan
                          WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                          @WCPTPTPN
                          Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                          @dfjpt
                          SomaSimple on Facebook
                          @somasimple

                          "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                          “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                          “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                          "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                          "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

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                          • #88
                            Hi John,

                            I probably didn't miss your point, i more likely ignored it:teeth:

                            I just felt like chewing on something you wrote and it was a good prompt for me to consider what "the key" was to long term improvements in chronic pain. When you write statements that are so strong it sounds, to me, that there is some very strong efficacy evidence behind treatments that restore an internal locus. It is not that strong and i think we should be cautious in statements like that. In respect to exercise i dont think that Lorimers work suggests that pain ed is superior to motor control exercises...he certainly has some papers published with Hodges supporting motor control exercises for decreases in pain in chronic pain sufferers.

                            Maybe we can discuss in another thread. Reviewing Moseley would certainly be helpful to me.

                            Greg
                            Greg Lehman BKin, MSc, DC, MScPT
                            No letters allowed learned on weekends.
                            Physiotherapist
                            Chiropractor

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Greg,
                              Staying within the context of this thread, what I was attempting to strongly convey is that what we're doing now- all of us- is either not working or we don't really know if it works or not. However, some of us have a sound theory or a deep model on which to base what we do, while others seem to rely on what they "enjoy" doing or what the patient wants done to them.

                              I'm going to place my bets on those who have the superior, more defensible explanatory model, which, based on what I've read, appears to be one that supports building internal locus, adopting an interactor stance. We know that the most troublesome patients- the ones who cost the system the most and still don't get much better- lack the confidence that they will ever get better and this is a huge stumbling block to their recovery. Many studies have demonstrated how strong a predictor of poor outcome this is. Therefore, we should, at least, avoid treatment that threaten internal locus/self-efficacy.

                              I don't see how conveying to a patient like this that rubbing or pressing on a particular spot on their foot, thereby adjusting some reflex arc, in order to affect a pain in their head is ultimately of any value to either the patient or society in general. In fact, I think it's harmful to both.
                              John Ware, PT
                              Fellow of the American Academy of Orthopedic Manual Physical Therapists
                              "Nothing can bring a man peace but the triumph of principles." -R.W. Emerson
                              “If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things. If language be not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot
                              be carried on to success.” -The Analects of Confucius, Book 13, Verse 3

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Welcome to SomaSimple Curious! I also know Curious as a colleague, not in person, but online for many years.

                                Curious, reading through these posts I haven't read anything that is unwelcoming. As was mentioned before, when we have our ideas questioned, that can shut us off. I remember when I first came here as a lurker in 2007- I thought these people were really jerks and didn't like massage therapists.

                                After deciding to open MY mind for a change, I realized that I was only reacting defensively which made it seem like everything was an attack. Once I realized that no one was attacking ME personally, I've learned so much from this forum.

                                The most important thing is to set aside any agenda. This forum isn't like other forums where one can just post their opinions- and then others reply with their own opinions and then everyone bashes about their opinions for a bit.

                                Rather, on this forum, someone posts their theories and/or ideas and and then their post is deconstructed and broken down in order so the readers may understand why the person has that opinion, idea, theory, whatever in order to take the idea further.This forum is more about explaining why you have the thoughts, ideas and beliefs you have and then tearing it up to understand it better. I've never seen that before on other forums and I've benefited more from this than any other board I've ever been on.

                                There is some really great thinking going on here and it would be a shame if you left. There are a number of massage therapists here and also a few chiros on this board.

                                Caro was spot on with this bit-

                                Hi Curious and welcome.

                                I too am a massage therapist. Karen lines (another MT) gave some good advice in post #13. Take your time, give yourself time.

                                It'll kind of go like this :

                                :angry:, :cry:, :sad:, , , , and finally

                                :teeth:

                                Happy reading.
                                "The danger is not that the soul should doubt whether there is any bread, but that, by a lie, it should persuade itself that it is not hungry" (Simone Weil)

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