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  • #46
    Originally posted by Sheffphysio View Post
    There is something about not having your mind so open that your brain falls out. Some CAM falls into that category.

    Some yes... all no. Yes. That was my point.
    C.O. ( gender: ) - LMT, BS(Anatomy), DC
    Music Fog... pick a song to listen to... you can't go wrong.
    Need relaxation samples for your office? I have made a Deep Relaxation Massage Music Pandora Station and have others that may also be useful - about 8 massage music stations and about 49 other nifty options.

    Comment


    • #47
      Which ones? You may not think so, but if we are charging the public money for the provision of services we are obligated to defend them using logic, rational thinking, plausibility and theory.
      Barrett L. Dorko

      Comment


      • #48
        Curious One,

        Why not start a thread on Reflexology and what you think are the mechanisms behind its effectiveness. If you really are curious you have at your disposal a group that could shed some light on why your patients get better.
        Rob Willcott Physiotherapist

        Comment


        • #49
          CO,
          I think you misinterpreted my initial post in this thread. I assume when people come into this forum to describe their training and clinical approach that they have acquainted themselves with the values of the forum members. As several have said, this forum is firmly science-based at its core. If you have not read the Forum Moderators' Consensus on the Culture of SomaSimple, then I highly recommend you read it before you get too far along here.

          Your dismissal of Barrett suggesting that he lacks an "open mind" is emblematic of your- and many others' who have come here- misunderstanding of the purpose and role of science in advancing clinical practice. What Barrett is referring to is the fundamental concept of prior scientific plausibility, which is a prerequisite for proceeding with rational scientific investigation. Unfortunately, this principle is routinely violated by NCCAM, where over $130M was budgeted for "research" into many implausible treatments, such as reflexology, Reiki, acupuncture and many others. (See an excellent thread at Respectful Insolence for more on the current "Strategic Plan" at NCCAM.)

          I am genuinely interested in why certain well-educated individuals, like yourself, decide to adopt a less rigorously science-based approach to care. This is not a personal assault or criticism. I understand that we all practice in a very irrational health care system, and sometimes I wonder if some just decide to give up on rationality and capitulate to the unpredictability and chaos that is our modern health care system. This behavior is intriguing to me.



          And, no Randy, it's not about "fun". I never come here looking for that.
          John Ware, PT
          Fellow of the American Academy of Orthopedic Manual Physical Therapists
          "Nothing can bring a man peace but the triumph of principles." -R.W. Emerson
          “If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things. If language be not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot
          be carried on to success.” -The Analects of Confucius, Book 13, Verse 3

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by caro View Post
            It'll kind of go like this :

            :angry:, :cry:, :sad:, , , , and finally

            :teeth:

            Happy reading.
            :clap2: That is Great and so true!
            Anthony C. Distano, MS, DC, DACRB
            Diplomate of the American Chiropractic Rehabilitation Board

            Comment


            • #51
              Hi Dave!

              Don't have your mind so open that your brain falls out.
              Good line!
              Attached Files

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Barrett Dorko View Post
                Which ones? You may not think so, but if we are charging the public money for the provision of services we are obligated to defend them using logic, rational thinking, plausibility and theory.
                If this has to do with your concerns over my charging the public money for my services, let me assure you, that as a cash based practice, I am not preying on the public for wealth.

                Most of my patients and clients are either referred to me by other patients/clients or by a few neurologists and an orthopedic. They are referred to me because I am results oriented. And, yes, I will admit, I am not the best at verbalizing and theory. But, that's why I came to this forum, right?

                If I don't think I can help someone, I am open enough to tell them that up-front. If I feel I can, I will tell them that too. If we are not seeing some kind of useful results within a visit or two, I am re-evaluating the situation immediately. If I feel the need to refer out for co-management we'll discuss that. If I feel the need to refer out completely, we'll discuss that too.

                I have no problem not charging a fee, if I am not sure if I can help someone. It's my office, I can do that, and I have.

                I honestly want to provide results... be that helping a client post knee replacement with bodywork after the PT has done as much as they are able to do within the confines of the office they work in, providing a chiropractic patient with flexion/distraction for a lower back issue, or helping a new mother who is having issues with milk producation so that she sees a 30% increase in milk production after 2 visits of reflexology.

                I can't always explain it, but I am open to finding ways to do that. And, I am hoping that this forum provides me with greater ways to build and syncronize my thought process.


                Originally posted by John W View Post
                CO,
                I think you misinterpreted my initial post in this thread. I assume when people come into this forum to describe their training and clinical approach that they have acquainted themselves with the values of the forum members. As several have said, this forum is firmly science-based at its core. If you have not read the Forum Moderators' Consensus on the Culture of SomaSimple, then I highly recommend you read it before you get too far along here.

                Your dismissal of Barrett suggesting that he lacks an "open mind" is emblematic of your- and many others' who have come here- misunderstanding of the purpose and role of science in advancing clinical practice. What Barrett is referring to is the fundamental concept of prior scientific plausibility, which is a prerequisite for proceeding with rational scientific investigation. Unfortunately, this principle is routinely violated by NCCAM, where over $130M was budgeted for "research" into many implausible treatments, such as reflexology, Reiki, acupuncture and many others. (See an excellent thread at Respectful Insolence for more on the current "Strategic Plan" at NCCAM.)

                I am genuinely interested in why certain well-educated individuals, like yourself, decide to adopt a less rigorously science-based approach to care. This is not a personal assault or criticism. I understand that we all practice in a very irrational health care system, and sometimes I wonder if some just decide to give up on rationality and capitulate to the unpredictability and chaos that is our modern health care system. This behavior is intriguing to me.
                Thank you very much, John W. I see now, that you are right, it was a straight misinterpretation.

                Although rationality is nice and I'd like for all things to be described under what I think is rational thinking... I do find that occasionally things work even if I don't really understand why. I usually brush it off as my own personal limitations in understanding and that I have not had the wonderful ability to experience everything in life and probably never will. I am not, and will never claim to be, an Einstein.

                I enjoy helping others. I like to help people get out of pain. I honestly love my patients/clients and my practice (I think I said that before). So, although the majority of my practice is true bodywork and massage, with an emphasis on soft tissue neck work as what I am known for (that's why the neuro's refer to me), it doesn't mean that I don't like to keep other tools in my tool box.

                Chiropractic as a modality is my first love. It helped me personally recover after a very nasty car accident. And, possibly if I had seen a PT instead, I would have ventured in that direction. But, I didn't, and here I am today.

                However, many people are not fond of chiropractic and many times I find an underlying soft tissue mess anyway. Oh, and I am not pushy when it comes to suggesting treatment. So, I don't beat the streets and I don't advertise. Although I am excellent at my craft, I have found that I prefer for people to come to me for what I have to offer. Once they've made it though my doors, I will work with them to find a treatment plan that works best for them.

                I hope that helps answer your questions about my intriguing behaviour. I do notice that I am intriguing to most people. But, it is what works for me. And, I need to be happy in life. This is what works.

                Thanks for the warmer response. It means a lot.
                C.O. ( gender: ) - LMT, BS(Anatomy), DC
                Music Fog... pick a song to listen to... you can't go wrong.
                Need relaxation samples for your office? I have made a Deep Relaxation Massage Music Pandora Station and have others that may also be useful - about 8 massage music stations and about 49 other nifty options.

                Comment


                • #53
                  helping a new mother who is having issues with milk producation so that she sees a 30% increase in milk production after 2 visits of reflexology.
                  This would be a great starting point for a new thread. Wouldn't you want to know how you are able to increase milk production using reflexology? What do you tell the mother when they ask how this works. My wife is presently breastfeeding and if you were able to increase her porduction of milk with reflexology I can assure you that either her or myself would have lots of questions for you.
                  Rob Willcott Physiotherapist

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    I do find that occasionally things work even if I don't really understand why. I usually brush it off as my own personal limitations in understanding and that I have not had the wonderful ability to experience everything in life and probably never will. I am not, and will never claim to be, an Einstein.

                    I enjoy helping others. I like to help people get out of pain. I honestly love my patients/clients and my practice (I think I said that before).
                    :clap1::clap1:

                    Much of what is discussed on this forum is understanding "why" from a scientific perspetive. And for most, when they analyze the "why", they are :sad: or :angry:. Many don't like to be questioned about what they believe to be true. The resistance to a conceptual change in understanding is a defensive-protective response, emotionally driven, similar to "pain". Your initial responses to us questioning your understanding of your practice demonstrated this. But that makes you human. I reacted the same way...

                    I suspect the majority of your patients seek your care secondary to pain. Thats why we are here. We discuss the scientific evidence that is available to us and determine if the interventions which we apply are scientifically plausable. If you stick around, I suspect you will go through Caro's "phases of emoticon" but don't let our questioning of your practice drive you away. I really think you will learn alot.
                    Joseph Brence, DPT, FAAOMPT, COMT, DAC
                    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds" - Albert Einstein
                    Blog: www.forwardthinkingpt.com

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Curious One View Post


                      I enjoy helping others. I like to help people get out of pain. I honestly love my patients/clients and my practice (I think I said that before). So, although the majority of my practice is true bodywork and massage, with an emphasis on soft tissue neck work as what I am known for (that's why the neuro's refer to me), it doesn't mean that I don't like to keep other tools in my tool box.

                      Chiropractic as a modality is my first love. It helped me personally recover after a very nasty car accident. And, possibly if I had seen a PT instead, I would have ventured in that direction. But, I didn't, and here I am today. However, many people are not fond of chiropractic and many times I find an underlying soft tissue mess anyway. Oh, and I am not pushy when it comes to suggesting treatment. So, I don't beat the streets and I don't advertise. Although I am excellent at my craft, I have found that I prefer for people to come to me for what I have to offer. Once they've made it though my doors, I will work with them to find a treatment plan that works best for them.

                      I hope that helps answer your questions about my intriguing behaviour. I do notice that I am intriguing to most people. But, it is what works for me. And, I need to be happy in life. This is what works.

                      Thanks for the warmer response. It means a lot.
                      Curious,

                      What is true body work? Not trying to play semantics but chiropractic is not a modality, but a profession. What do you mean when you say many people are not fond of chiropractic? Do you mean your patients/clients are not fond of the profession? Or as a modality you are using and calling chiropractic. In my office chiropractic is a profession that utilizes movement (active/passive) and education (accurate and evidence based pain science) aimed at assisting the patient's nervous system to reconceptualize (decrease) actual or perceived threat, hopefully leading to a decrease in pain....plain and simple. I think most people seeking your care (providing they have been screened appropriately) would want that, and need that. Perhaps it is the way you are presenting chiropractic to them? The choice is up to you. Are you a subluxation-based chiropractor ? I do not understand why professionals have to specify "I am not going to use "myofascial release" for your soft tissue, dry needle your trigger points, mobilize/maipulate your joints, adjust your "subluxations" stretch/mobilize your nerves. Makes you think you need all of these "tools" in your tool box to effectively/be prepared for "what ever walks in your door" or help what ever is the "cause" (most of the time based on faulty thinking the cause of pain is from tissues in the body) of pain. Easier to have a unified explanation aligned with science IMO: You have pain....pain is an output from the brain...movement (active preferably with limited use of passive... slow mindful novel) is the prescription (assuming you have mechanical pain). Then you, as the expert, can get creative from there. Kind of liberating actually and saves you time on evaluation, treatment and a lot less stress and needless assumption.
                      Last edited by Anthony Distano; 28-08-2012, 11:23 PM.
                      Anthony C. Distano, MS, DC, DACRB
                      Diplomate of the American Chiropractic Rehabilitation Board

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Not trying to play semantics but chiropractic is not a modality, but a profession. What do you mean when you say many people are not found of chiropractic? Do you mean your patients/clients are not fond of the profession? Or as a modality you are using and calling chiropractic.
                        Anthony,
                        I think I can identify with CO on this point. Chiro's have created the confusion themselves by building up a mythology or "belief-system" around what they do. From the get-go, they distinguished themselves from allopathic medicine by espousing half-baked theories, including subluxation, which is driven by the anti-scientific notion of vitalism.

                        Accompanying this irrationalism, is the use of a coercive technique, manipulation, which is scary to some people (as I think it should be in certain circumstances).

                        So when you combine flakiness with domineering behavior (and I didn't even get into their marketing and sales techniques), I think many clear-thinking patients are turned off by the image that chiropractors, themselves, have created of their profession.
                        John Ware, PT
                        Fellow of the American Academy of Orthopedic Manual Physical Therapists
                        "Nothing can bring a man peace but the triumph of principles." -R.W. Emerson
                        “If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things. If language be not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot
                        be carried on to success.” -The Analects of Confucius, Book 13, Verse 3

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by John W View Post
                          Anthony,
                          I think I can identify with CO on this point. Chiro's have created the confusion themselves by building up a mythology or "belief-system" around what they do. From the get-go, they distinguished themselves from allopathic medicine by espousing half-baked theories, including subluxation, which is driven by the anti-scientific notion of vitalism.

                          Accompanying this irrationalism, is the use of a coercive technique, manipulation, which is scary to some people (as I think it should be in certain circumstances).

                          So when you combine flakiness with domineering behavior (and I didn't even get into their marketing and sales techniques), I think many clear-thinking patients are turned off by the image that chiropractors, themselves, have created of their profession.
                          Yes, but that does not mean individual practitioners have to perpetuate the problem,
                          Anthony C. Distano, MS, DC, DACRB
                          Diplomate of the American Chiropractic Rehabilitation Board

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Video posted to my wall, by a guy who attended my workshop last weekend, stopped renewing his chiro licence 8 years ago, who said,
                            "I did go to chiropractic college in the early 80's, found it insanely unscientific and became a Rolfer. I had the good fortune of studying with excellent teachers like Janet Travell, Karel Lewit, Vladamir Janda, John Mennell, Moshe Feldenkrais, Thomas Hanna...spent everything I made to learn something useful. I did teach at a chiro college for 10 years that gave me free reign to share what I learned outside of chiro college. Eventually I went to osteopathic college in Vancouver and gave up my chiro license about 8 years ago. I sometimes write for chiro magazines about the nervous system from a contemporary neuroscience perpective, trying to be an "agent of change." If I was younger I'd go back to school and become a physical therapist. I have been gravitating for years toward an ectodermal, gentle as possible approach to treating patients in pain, but it wasn't until I stumbled across SomaSimple, Barrett Dorko's writings, and your numerous internet presences that I felt "at home" with what I do. I learned more useful information and technique last weekend than in the past 30 years."
                            Now, much of that is likely (chiroesque) hyperbole, but still, an endorsement from an ex-chiro..

                            [YT]nyU5EuX9wog[/YT]
                            Diane
                            www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                            SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                            HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                            Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                            Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                            Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                            @PainPhysiosCan
                            WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                            @WCPTPTPN
                            Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                            @dfjpt
                            SomaSimple on Facebook
                            @somasimple

                            "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                            “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                            “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                            "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                            "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Anthony Distano View Post
                              Curious,

                              What is true body work? Not trying to play semantics but chiropractic is not a modality, but a profession. What do you mean when you say many people are not fond of chiropractic? Do you mean your patients/clients are not fond of the profession? Or as a modality you are using and calling chiropractic. In my office chiropractic is a profession that utilizes movement (active/passive) and education (accurate and evidence based pain science) aimed at assisting the patient's nervous system to reconceptualize (decrease) actual or perceived threat, hopefully leading to a decrease in pain....plain and simple. I think most people seeking your care (providing they have been screened appropriately) would want that, and need that. Perhaps it is the way you are presenting chiropractic to them? The choice is up to you. Are you a subluxation-based chiropractor ? I do not understand why professionals have to specify "I am not going to use "myofascial release" for your soft tissue, dry needle your trigger points, mobilize/maipulate your joints, adjust your "subluxations" stretch/mobilize your nerves. Makes you think you need all of these "tools" in your tool box to effectively/be prepared for "what ever walks in your door" or help what ever is the "cause" (most of the time based on faulty thinking the cause of pain is from tissues in the body) of pain. Easier to have a unified explanation aligned with science IMO: You have pain....pain is an output from the brain...movement (active preferably with limited use of passive... slow mindful novel) is the prescription (assuming you have mechanical pain). Then you, as the expert, can get creative from there. Kind of liberating actually and saves you time on evaluation, treatment and a lot less stress and needless assumption.
                              When I said "true" bodywork, I should have said I use soft tissue work solely for much of my practice and in those instances it will not in combination with chiropractic. That means about 75% of the people who come through my doors will not get chiropractic manipulation. I hope that makes more sense. I was not trying to make it sound like my form of bodywork/soft tissue work was the "one true way" or some such.

                              Having been around chiropractic since the late 70's, I have found that there are enough people who have a propensity toward thinking that many chiropractors are nut-jobs, wanna-be-doctors, bone-poppers they think may hurt them, shysters, and money-hungry jerks.

                              I don't present chiropractic to anyone who doesn't come asking for help or to anyone who isn't interested. It's not how my particular practice functions.

                              My chiropractic patients are all "fond of the profession". If they weren't, they wouldn't be in my office.

                              If they only want chiropractic, then that is what they will get. If they choose both chiropractic and bodywork, then I'll incorporate those as needed for their particular situation. But, if someone only wants soft tissue work, then soft tissue work is what they will get. If they are nervous about chiropractic and don't want any part of it, they will never have to be worried about walking through my doors and being bombarded with some discussion about why they can't live without an adjustment. That can be a stressor for people and I don't practice that way. This is what works for my particular practice. It may not work for yours.

                              I don't have too much stress in my practice as it is basically "by referral" for the most part. But, if someone finds my website or a positive review of me on the internet and want to schedule an appointment, I'll be happy to consult with them to see if I can be of help.

                              I chose the tools in my toolbox based upon how I personally enjoy working. Again, it may not be your cup of tea. But, it works well for me. I am even hoping to add Feldenkrais Method teacher training to my toolbox in the next few years, as I feel I am fortunate to have this training held in my city.

                              -=-=-

                              Oh, and if anyone knows how to do something about the "time out" on the forum, or lead me to a thread where I can read how to make it longer, it would be nice.

                              I keep getting tossed out and when I try to log back in, it sends me into a no-mans zone.

                              Then I have to go to google, search out the forum again and then come back and re-sign in.

                              Thanks in advance.
                              Last edited by Curious One; 29-08-2012, 02:35 AM. Reason: - to correct some wording and add a thought.
                              C.O. ( gender: ) - LMT, BS(Anatomy), DC
                              Music Fog... pick a song to listen to... you can't go wrong.
                              Need relaxation samples for your office? I have made a Deep Relaxation Massage Music Pandora Station and have others that may also be useful - about 8 massage music stations and about 49 other nifty options.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Diane View Post
                                Not sure what you meant by this, but whatever it means, it's spelled wrong.
                                I think it is more important how you do it than how you spell it.

                                Comment

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