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  • #61
    The traditional theory about action potential is described here =>
    http://nerve.bsd.uchicago.edu/med98d.htm#Propagation

    There is a figure that shows the process:
    Diane will remind herself the passive spread current (electrotonic current).



    The analysis of the voltage distribution along the axon as a function of time for a stimulating current step in the center is shown schematically in Fig 33. In this case, the axon is immersed in a large bath of solution, therefore we may consider the external resistance close to zero, which makes the outside essentially isopotential. For this reason, the diagram is showing only the internal resistances connecting the membrane patches. Fig. 33 shows the current intensity as darkness in the wires, and it also shows the voltage distribution as a function of distance after we have waited a long time and all the capacitors have been charged to their final value (for this reason the currents are only in the resistive branches). When the pulse is suddenly applied, the current will go mainly to charge the membrane capacitance but most of this current will be taken by the capacitance closest to the electrode and much less by the capacitance further away because the internal resistance produces a voltage drop (V=ir) and less voltage will be seen by the distant capacitors. This initial capacitive charging may be considered like a short circuit at short times. As the capacitance near the electrode gets charged, the current in that region decreases and more can go to regions farther away and charge the rest of the axon capacitance. This means that regions far away from the current electrode will start increasing their voltage with a time lag.
    Last edited by bernard; 24-09-2007, 07:22 AM.
    Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
    We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

    Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
    If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
    bernard

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    • #62
      OK, I think I'm catching up. You are showing the difference between electric conductance (the term most commonly used when describing neural function) and propagation (more accurate).

      I understand the tank model you made. I remember myelin creates space between the tanks but creates a mode in which the tanks still communicate with eachother or propagate eachother as if they were still directly next to one another, allowing for speedy propagation over long distances.

      Could you tie these two things together for me bernard? I remember you making the point that myelin was not like a conductor but instead like a sheath around a hose helping a wave to propagate quicker. I took this literally to mean you thought there was an actual physical wave within the neuron. Now I think you were using that example to demonstrate this difference between conductance and propagation. Am I with you?

      Also, I remember Kandel writing of gap junctions as actually having some electric properties different than the propagation properties of a synapse. I'll try to find it tonight.

      Thanks!
      Cory Blickenstaff, PT, OCS

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      • #63
        Cory,

        You begin to understand the thing but some notions remains fuzzy in your mind. That comes from my language problem. :embarasse
        Gap junctions are another affair and myelin wasn't "reached" at this time of discussion.
        Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
        We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

        Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
        If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
        bernard

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by BB
          OK, I think I'm catching up. You are showing the difference between electric conductance (the term most commonly used when describing neural function) and propagation (more accurate).
          I'm speaking about propagation telling differences that exist between a real electric circuit an the one described arbitrary in axons.
          The second uses components that have properties that are far from those described and known.

          Originally posted by BB
          I understand the tank model you made.
          The upper tank is the external side of the axon like here
          The lower tank is the opposite side of the membrane under the ion channel.
          The tube is an ion channel (with a ionic/electric tap).

          Originally posted by BB
          Also, I remember Kandel writing of gap junctions as actually having some electric properties different than the propagation properties of a synapse.
          chemical synapes are the best way to enable communication between neurons of different kinds and it is a way to change their bahaviour.
          Gap junctions create networks of synchronous neurons => Super neurons.
          Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
          We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

          Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
          If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
          bernard

          Comment


          • #65
            Here is a little drawing showing some basic electric rules.

            Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
            We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

            Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
            If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
            bernard

            Comment


            • #66
              And here is the full diagram of action potential propagation.
              I just rounded some clues.

              http://nerve.bsd.uchicago.edu/med98d.htm#Propagation

              Last edited by bernard; 25-09-2007, 07:47 AM. Reason: typo
              Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
              We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

              Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
              If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
              bernard

              Comment


              • #67
                There is some impossible current circulations.
                This is strictly forbidden by Physics.

                But if this theory violates a single law of Physics then the whole process is then stopped. No propagation at all in these conditions.

                I'm working on a large project that obeys to Physics.
                Each movie is a bit... long to produce.

                Here is the first of 4 (not terminated => 1 or more weeks).
                Attached Files
                Last edited by bernard; 29-09-2007, 07:53 AM. Reason: typo
                Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
                We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

                Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
                If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
                bernard

                Comment


                • #68
                  Find the error!

                  Here is a new picture that shows some examples of electric current circulations that follow normal rules.

                  I made a mistake in these examples! Are you able to find it?

                  Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
                  We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

                  Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
                  If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
                  bernard

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Of course, my intentional mistake is at the first element and second row: Current can't flow from - to +.

                    Many of you may think that I'm a bit (sic) nut.

                    Here is the respectable example found on Wikipedia

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_potential
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_...al#Propagation
                    There is a picture at the right.

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:A...model_view.jpg

                    and that is my comment;
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ac...gation_Picture
                    Attached Files
                    Last edited by bernard; 18-10-2007, 07:23 AM.
                    Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
                    We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

                    Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
                    If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
                    bernard

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Here is a new movie that shows how it works in non myelinated membranes:

                      http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/ap_seq_02.swf
                      Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
                      We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

                      Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
                      If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
                      bernard

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        You may be interested by this section:
                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ac...g_their_motion
                        Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
                        We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

                        Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
                        If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
                        bernard

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Don't forget that the glia buffer synapses by blotting up excess K+.
                          Diane
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                          "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                          “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

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                          • #73
                            I asked a difficult question on specialized forums:

                            On physics forums
                            Action potential and Na+

                            On science for everyone
                            Action potential and Na+

                            On Science & phisolophy
                            Action potential and Na+
                            Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
                            We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

                            Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
                            If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
                            bernard

                            Comment

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