Neuron, Myelin and a Ionic Gun

[Diane]

Very cool Bernard. It's an interesting conversation!

[bernard]

There is a discussion about this subject on another (scientific) forum.
Action Of Nerves Is Based On Sound Pulses, Anesthetics Resea

ps: I'm a novice.

[bernard]

http://www.somasimple.com/forums/sho...6&postcount=19

But sound in the air is transmitted with an approximated speed of 330ms^-1 and much more in water.

Nerve transmit "the wave" under 200 ms^-1

It can't be sound. The wave is physical/mechanical but slower. It is a sustained wave (by ions channels).

[Jon Newman]

Here's a link to many full text articles on the subject. See publications.

[bernard]

Diane,

It is a good find but unfortunately from the "opposite" side.
Ions when they move from one side of the membrane to the other may be heard as electrical noises. These noises reflect real physical moves and not electronic flux in circuits.

[Diane]

Here's a little news piece on general cellular systems "noise" that may be relevant.

[Diane]

Ah. I'm finally starting to get your drift on this Bernard - you're ahead of the pack.

[bernard]

Diane,

Yes, I said it couldn't be electrical (but seen as). This thread shows the passive component of transmission that enhances its speed. I used a term of physical wave and sound is a physical wave. The active part seems ionic and quite solitonic.

[Diane]

Hey Bernard, as I recall you said it couldn't be electrical. Did you say it was sound though? I thought you were thinking about solitons at the time.
So, anesthetic is like putting chemical ear plugs into a patient's nervous system.. hmnn. Interesting.

[bernard]

Nerves Transmit Sound, Not Electricity


Did I said that some time ago ? :angel:

I wrote a email to Thomas.

[bernard]

The propagation is similar to an explosion (similar but not identical).
An explosion creates a pressure wave that is propagated. This wave is a virtual explosion (you ear the sound only)
Of course, in the AP, the major difference is that the phenomenon is much slower than the wave. It is the contrary that exists during an exploding.

[flash]http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/decay_03.swf[/flash]

@ Cory.
If you put a tube looking at the explosion, you have more chance to ear it in good conditions. You direct the sound to you ear. Myelin directs the wave to the next node.

[bernard]

Conduction of the nerve impulse in myelinated fibers is saltatory with respect to space but not, in general, with respect to time.

They simply discarded the problem!
The problem was too complex in 1938 to be solved. They didn't searched another possible explanation to the phenomenon that was contradictory with the emerging theories.

[bernard]

Here is a little animation of the ionic gun.

[flash]http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/decay.swf[/flash]

Ionic Gun

Of course, the dimensions are very enlarged, emphasizing the phenomenon.
The myelin segment is 150/200 longer than a node. :embarasse

[bernard]

Constriction amplifies the transmission of the force.

Of course, but importance is given in that case to the transmission over long distance. The initial force is very attenuated/damped.

Is this the same mechanism you are describing? Myelin is the duct tape? The action potential is a recording of a wave traveling through the liquid properties of the nerve that keeps getting amplified by each myelin sheath which does not allow the wave deformation?

Myelin is a duct tape that disallows transversal deformation of the membrane. Myelin is not amplifying the wave. An echo is transmitted that allows a new ignition at the next node.

It is the best evil solution because nothing really move far. Economy! Beauty and Efficiency.

I'm amazed BTW that Nature in case of neuron used many solutions at the same time. I'll explain this point of view in the propagation thread.

[BB]

Bernard,
US independence day is July 4th, and a patient was talking with me about fireworks today.

A friend of his lost an eye because he duct taped a bunch of fire crackers together. This constriction, intensified the explosion. The patient said that the same thing happens when you wrap up dynamite with duct tape.

Constriction amplifies the transmission of the force.

Is this the same mechanism you are describing? Myelin is the duct tape? The action potential is a recording of a wave traveling through the liquid properties of the nerve that keeps getting amplified by each myelin sheath which does not allow the wave deformation?

If this is the case, would the wave build speed the further it travelled? Be moving a bit faster at each node as it keeps getting amplified?

Cory