Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

RE Ephemera

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    I wondered the same thing Jon and I can only guess that this must be a reference to the context of the paper being commented upon.
    Cory Blickenstaff, PT, OCS

    Pain Science and Sensibility Podcast
    Leaps and Bounds Blog
    My youtube channel

    Comment


    • #62
      Sorry to hear you came away from RE with your fingers burnt John. It certainly was a vigorous and entertaining couple of threads. Hope you come back soon.
      cheers
      :lightbulb vox clamantis in deserto

      Geoff Fisher
      Physiotherapist

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by John W View Post
        I just completed a week's sojourn at the RehabEdge PT discussion forum. When I say completed, I mean I'm done. I don't expect to return unless or until I'm paid large sums of money by the administrator to co-administer the site, or a couple of the more self-involved and lame-brained members self-combust into oblivion.

        In other words, never.

        I entered that strange realm in a bit of a huff over one of our regular members here, proud, being referred to as a "pig". I was stunned by the lack of outrage or condemnation by the site's administrator or members. To his credit Rod Henderson did contribute his disapproval, but he was a lone voice. A couple of others referred to name-calling in an oblique way, but noticeably avoided even a hint of disapproval or condemnation.

        The name-caller was apparently suspended from the site eventually by the site's administrator. I saw a beacon of hope from deep in the swamp.

        Then I made the great error of daring to talk about pain science. I had the gall to make this statement in a thread about "sub-acromial impingement syndrome":


        The response by the unofficial PT board chiro was that I sounded like some quack talking about subluxation theory at a chiro conferance in the 80's. He added that I used just enough neuroscience research to "make it more swallowable" (not sure that's a word, but there you have it.)

        A pissing contest ensued, and I think most of you know how this usually goes...

        It was an experiment. I wanted to test the waters of the "living" for a week and see if there was a glimmer of curiosity, some little waves of critical thinking forming on that still and soupy swamp of mesodoom.

        Nada. Despite the herculean efforts of Rod, proud and Bas. I think there may be a couple of people over there with a yearning to arise out of the muck, but I'm a bit too clogged up with goo right now to recall who they were or what of substance that they said. They sure as hell didn't defend proud or me from what must be a standard method of assault in that smelly bog. It was all pretty murky.

        So, like a mayfly in August, I will recede into the soil and become one with the earth again.

        Dead as a doornail.
        John,

        Out of curiosity, what would they say about ideomotion?

        I recently worked with a teenager who had been diagnosed with sub-acromial impingement syndrome. He went to 2 pt clinics prior to our session and still lacked pain-free ROM, two full months after the injury initially occurred -- in fact, he winced the second he lifted his arm. Long story short his shoulder and elbow went through a lot of instinctive movement and he was completely pain-free in less than an hour. Yes, he still needs to increase his somatic awareness, but he doesn't suffer from sub-acromial impingement syndrome.

        Doesn't every therapist have to recognize, to one degree or another, that the nervous system will often find it's own way out if it's not coerced. That a defensive posture is not something to fix? Seriously, did I miss something in your post?

        p.s. We need a reality TV show. I would love to see, not read about, therapists who ignore the neuromatrix vs. therapists who work with the neuromatrix. How telling would it be to see a person get treated 6 times and not improve, at all, and then be pain-free from one session of DNM or Simple Contact or whatever else.

        Todd
        ________
        Yamaha FZR1000 specifications
        Last edited by regnalt deux; 30-01-2011, 05:16 AM.
        “Don’t believe everything you think.”

        Comment


        • #64
          Out of curiosity, what would they say about ideomotion?
          Todd,
          If the term "ectoderm" sends those people into a spinning, Tasmanian Devil-like rage, I shudder to think what the term "ideomotion" would provoke.

          However, you're more than welcome to be my guest, well not my guest- that might not go over too well- but you know what I mean.
          John Ware, PT
          Fellow of the American Academy of Orthopedic Manual Physical Therapists
          "Nothing can bring a man peace but the triumph of principles." -R.W. Emerson
          “If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things. If language be not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot
          be carried on to success.” -The Analects of Confucius, Book 13, Verse 3

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by John W View Post
            Todd,
            If the term "ectoderm" sends those people into a spinning, Tasmanian Devil-like rage
            Uh...John.
            Rod Henderson, PT, ScD, OCS
            It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into. — Jonathan Swift

            Comment


            • #66
              I just found this old thread on operator/interactor models of therapy
              By the way, in my humble opinion this operator/interactor distinction survives Quintneresque criticism better than ecto/meso.

              It implies the space in which we may actually work and have an effect. Interaction implies a shared space and that shared space (context) impacts those who share it. Implying that this is the only thing that we can effect is a very sound argument as far as I'm concerned, appears to avoid any dualistic interpretations (to this greenhorn), and seems to go along with the concept of autopeisis which Quintner espouses as well.
              Cory Blickenstaff, PT, OCS

              Pain Science and Sensibility Podcast
              Leaps and Bounds Blog
              My youtube channel

              Comment


              • #67
                Quintneresque criticism
                Great phrase Cory.

                Realizing that context is as effective as this made me seriously reconsider the worth of handling a while ago, and that's when I began the Suppose this were true thread.

                Luke came to my rescue late in the tread, pointing out that though my emphasis on corrective movement might not be necessary, it might very well be sufficient.

                Quinter's thinking always brings me up short when I imagine I know anything. I have to read his stuff again and again.
                Barrett L. Dorko

                Comment


                • #68
                  Wow Cory. I think you nailed it on the head.
                  Rod Henderson, PT, ScD, OCS
                  It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into. — Jonathan Swift

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    He did.

                    Alright, I can't find my Quinter reference. Where's the pdf?

                    Thanks.
                    Barrett L. Dorko

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Never mind. Found it.
                      Barrett L. Dorko

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        I think I appropriate the terms (meso/ecto) differently from others here. Perhaps I misappropriate them.

                        I've looked into it before, but I had to refresh my memory about what autopoiesis means. Here's the wiki entry on autopoiesis for a brief overview.
                        Last edited by Jon Newman; 16-09-2010, 02:16 AM.
                        "I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by BB View Post
                          By the way, in my humble opinion this operator/interactor distinction survives Quintneresque criticism better than ecto/meso.
                          Would the difference between interaction and intervention survive Quintneresque criticism?
                          ________
                          extreme vaporizer
                          Last edited by regnalt deux; 30-01-2011, 05:16 AM.
                          “Don’t believe everything you think.”

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by BB View Post
                            By the way, in my humble opinion this operator/interactor distinction survives Quintneresque criticism better than ecto/meso.
                            In my mind (admittedly a scary place at times)...

                            1. meso --> operator model; meso won't/can't object, because it's inert anatomical structure.

                            2. ecto --> interactor model; signaling tissue can and will resist, functionally and instantly, via its meso puppet strings and materials. The only way to work with it is to respect it, by suggesting things to it, waiting for a response, and backing off if the response is not a desired response.
                            Diane
                            www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                            SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                            HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                            Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                            Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                            Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                            @PainPhysiosCan
                            WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                            @WCPTPTPN
                            Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                            @dfjpt
                            SomaSimple on Facebook
                            @somasimple

                            "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                            “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                            “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                            "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                            "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              I don't think we have to limit our metaphors when we describe the chasm. Ecto/meso, interactor/operator, neurophysiological/biomechanical- they all have a place in the discussion, I think. Perhaps the context in which we are discussing this distinction is what matters most.

                              My latest peak over at the RE thread that was the impetus for this discussion displays some "sports therapist" who acknowledges that he's maybe "too much of a meathead" to understand this "ectoderm idea".

                              Based on what he's said so far, I honestly don't think this guy has any idea what ectoderm is, refers to or what relevance it has to physical therapy. So, I think we have to assume when we enter other PT forums that the level of basic biological knowledge may be limited. It's apparent to me that to some this term conjures feelings of doubt and fear as if you're re-living trying to take your best guess on the science section of the ACT.

                              Embryology is an extremely complex topic in the biological sciences, and it scares people. It was required for all biology majors at my undergraduate university, but I think that may be an exception. In PT school we literally read one chapter out of that dinosaur Physical Therapy by Scully and Barnes (which now sits high atop my bookshelves with the other hoarded masses of PT texts that I never reference). What a joke.

                              So, I'm getting the whole "ectophobia" thing now. Operator/interactor sounds great and I appreciate you clarifying this for us, Cory.

                              Rod,
                              Present company excepted on the Taz remark.:angel: I think that was you hiding behind a rock while some others were spinning out of control.
                              John Ware, PT
                              Fellow of the American Academy of Orthopedic Manual Physical Therapists
                              "Nothing can bring a man peace but the triumph of principles." -R.W. Emerson
                              “If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things. If language be not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot
                              be carried on to success.” -The Analects of Confucius, Book 13, Verse 3

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Call it what you want but ultimately the metaphors have to give way to just saying what it is. Sometimes facts get diluted by metaphors to the point where they become unrecognizable. My personal take is that the ecto/meso metaphor or whatever we are calling it does pale in comparison to the operator/interactor metaphor. As Cory suggested, the stance metaphor is much more inclusive of the model proposed by Quintner. The implication is that we have to see the patient in the context of their constantly adapting internal and external environments. As therapists we are part of the later trying to help model the former. We can't do this without the patient's explicit (conscious) and implicit (nonconscious) permission.

                                The derivative (ecto/meso) metaphor doesn't tap into this depth for reasons Quintner and Cory have already indicated. I'm really glad Cory posted that because it almost made yet another light go off in my head.

                                Now all I need to do is reread every thread on this forum again...thanks Cory.
                                Rod Henderson, PT, ScD, OCS
                                It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into. — Jonathan Swift

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X