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  • #46
    Originally posted by John W View Post
    If you take Jon's current byline by Changeaux: "To learn is to eliminate" and apply it to the meso/ecto dichotomy, I think it helps to explain the usefulness of the distinction. Approaching the patient with pain from the ectodermal perspective is inherently more parsimonious than from a connective tissue/biomechanical perspective.

    I think if this board has done anything over the years it's made a more than convincing argument that a neurophysiological point of view simply makes more sense.

    The label of "ectodermal" is merely metaphorical language that provides both an appreciation for what the human organism was and what it eventually becomes with respect to this primordial tissue layer that differentiates into the signaling and survival apparatus.

    It's a convenient and useful heuristic, unlike many of its heuristic counterparts found in the mesodermal derivative perspective; e.g. posture, alignment, strength, length, which have been found to have little if any meaningful relationship to pain.
    :clap2::clap2::clap2:
    John, you've got it. Want to write a book with me?
    Diane
    www.dermoneuromodulation.com
    SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
    HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
    Neurotonics PT Teamblog
    Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
    Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
    @PainPhysiosCan
    WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
    @WCPTPTPN
    Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

    @dfjpt
    SomaSimple on Facebook
    @somasimple

    "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

    “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

    “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

    "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

    "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

    Comment


    • #47
      I'll tell you what, Diane, send me the manuscript and maybe by 2020 I'll get it back to you with my ideas. :angel:
      John Ware, PT
      Fellow of the American Academy of Orthopedic Manual Physical Therapists
      "Nothing can bring a man peace but the triumph of principles." -R.W. Emerson
      “If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things. If language be not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot
      be carried on to success.” -The Analects of Confucius, Book 13, Verse 3

      Comment


      • #48
        I see. :sad:

        OK, that won't work.
        I find myself in a mind meld with several people here, so I'm just going to start writing. If I end up having stolen peoples' brain children, lodge a complaint with me prior to the writing being published, and I'll insert appropriate acknowledgment. Would that do instead?
        Diane
        www.dermoneuromodulation.com
        SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
        HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
        Neurotonics PT Teamblog
        Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
        Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
        @PainPhysiosCan
        WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
        @WCPTPTPN
        Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

        @dfjpt
        SomaSimple on Facebook
        @somasimple

        "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

        “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

        “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

        "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

        "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by TexasOrtho View Post
          I think you are pretty close to the mark, but I would quibble with your comment that the distinction is factual. There is (as usuall) a contextual qualifier there. It is factual in terms of taxonomy. However it is decidedly dualistic if examined int he context of the patient's experience.
          When I hear "dualism" in these forums, I think specifically of "mind/body dualism". I don't think the ecto/meso distinction is another way of stating mind/body dualism. The ectoderm is the body just as the mesoderm is the body.
          "I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Jon Newman View Post
            When I hear "dualism" in these forums, I think specifically of "mind/body dualism". I don't think the ecto/meso distinction is another way of stating mind/body dualism. The ectoderm is the body just as the mesoderm is the body.
            :thumbs_up:thumbs_up:thumbs_up
            Diane
            www.dermoneuromodulation.com
            SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
            HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
            Neurotonics PT Teamblog
            Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
            Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
            @PainPhysiosCan
            WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
            @WCPTPTPN
            Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

            @dfjpt
            SomaSimple on Facebook
            @somasimple

            "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

            “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

            “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

            "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

            "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

            Comment


            • #51
              I just found this old thread on operator/interactor models of therapy, how treatment should be a verb more than a noun, how pain is more a verb than a noun, how limiting English is when we look at it through the verb lens.

              It isn't so much that ecto is or isn't a tissue and meso is, it's more that treatment will be more verb than noun if we consider the whole interaction with another body as a visit to another's neuromatrix and everything it is responsible for, by using an ecto lens.

              Just because the body is made of "stuff" (both ecto and meso) we should not limit ourselves to (as Barrett says) the 'ground' of the terrain we visit, but should remain aware of cloud patterns, atmosphere, all that which is invisible except through its effects on (absolutely) everything that is in or on ground. Will we have any effect on the atmosphere? Even when we can't "see" it? Of course. Will we know what it is? Only indirectly, when we feel the earth move. Will the earth move? Of course, but not predictably.
              Diane
              www.dermoneuromodulation.com
              SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
              HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
              Neurotonics PT Teamblog
              Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
              Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
              @PainPhysiosCan
              WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
              @WCPTPTPN
              Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

              @dfjpt
              SomaSimple on Facebook
              @somasimple

              "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

              “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

              “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

              "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

              "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

              Comment


              • #52
                When I hear "dualism" in these forums, I think specifically of "mind/body dualism". I don't think the ecto/meso distinction is another way of stating mind/body dualism. The ectoderm is the body just as the mesoderm is the body.
                True, but ecto is used in the context of a tissue communicating with the brain. I think the mind/body dualism comes into play as this assumes the contruct that "pain is an output of the brain." I think that's were the dualism comes into play, if pain is indeed an aporia.
                Cory Blickenstaff, PT, OCS

                Pain Science and Sensibility Podcast
                Leaps and Bounds Blog
                My youtube channel

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by BB View Post
                  True, but ecto is used in the context of a tissue communicating with the brain. I think the mind/body dualism comes into play as this assumes the contruct that "pain is an output of the brain." I think that's were the dualism comes into play, if pain is indeed an aporia.
                  Why is the "brain" any different from any other tissue communicating with the "brain"? The brain is not monolithic; its parts can communicate freely amongst themselves, in fact, mostly, that's exactly what they do. Interneurons make up the vast majority of signaling pathways. Not sure what this has to do with dualism, which (in our frame of reference as manual and/or physical therapists) refers to mind/body dualism straight from Decartes, the famous Cartesian divide, and his related ideas about pain, which are now eclipsed. Unless you mean dualism in the sense of setting up any two ideas and putting them in opposition in order to more meaningfully discern and understand and analyze them..
                  Diane
                  www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                  SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                  HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                  Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                  Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                  Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                  @PainPhysiosCan
                  WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                  @WCPTPTPN
                  Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                  @dfjpt
                  SomaSimple on Facebook
                  @somasimple

                  "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                  “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                  “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                  "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                  "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by BB View Post
                    True, but ecto is used in the context of a tissue communicating with the brain. I think the mind/body dualism comes into play as this assumes the contruct that "pain is an output of the brain." I think that's were the dualism comes into play, if pain is indeed an aporia.
                    I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you saying the statement "pain is an output" assumes mind/body dualism?
                    "I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Jon Newman View Post
                      When I hear "dualism" in these forums, I think specifically of "mind/body dualism". I don't think the ecto/meso distinction is another way of stating mind/body dualism. The ectoderm is the body just as the mesoderm is the body.
                      Actually it is. And this is one of Quintner's primary criticisms of the biopsychosocial model as it is currently constructed. While being far superior to the biomedical reductionist model, it doesn't escape the dualistic notion of implicating the mind instead of the body it governs. This is why, again in his words, Quinter refers to pain as an aporia which defies discrete taxonomy of ecto/meso debates.

                      This is why I find such discussions productive only on a very superficial level. Eventually you have to move on. I think we are at that point.
                      Rod Henderson, PT, ScD, OCS
                      It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into. — Jonathan Swift

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by TexasOrtho View Post
                        Actually it is.
                        I'm not seeing how, but I'm open to someone helping me understand even if that simply means pointing me to something I ought to read.
                        Last edited by Jon Newman; 14-09-2010, 11:28 PM.
                        "I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          From Quintners letter "Beyond Monism and Dualism":

                          Although we may all agree to move beyond body/ mind
                          dualistic interpretations of unexplained pain, the very
                          language currently available to us constrains us in this
                          undertaking.
                          This is the point I'm trying to bring up. I think "Pain is an output of the brain" is constrained in the same manner.

                          Why is the "brain" any different from any other tissue communicating with the "brain"? The brain is not monolithic; its parts can communicate freely amongst themselves, in fact, mostly, that's exactly what they do. Interneurons make up the vast majority of signaling pathways.
                          I'm speaking as opposed to cells that communicate with their neighbors, like mesodermal derivatives do.
                          Cory Blickenstaff, PT, OCS

                          Pain Science and Sensibility Podcast
                          Leaps and Bounds Blog
                          My youtube channel

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Jon, while I won't pretend to understand it all (OK, hardly any) here is Popper making the language argument.
                            Cory Blickenstaff, PT, OCS

                            Pain Science and Sensibility Podcast
                            Leaps and Bounds Blog
                            My youtube channel

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              I understand that I have a slightly different opinion on most things than many posters on this forum but...

                              When I discuss these ideas with others I shy away from the terms ecto and meso- to me they are more distinctions in someone's focus of treatment and I don't think that the embryological origin of the tissues is the most important distinction I'm trying to make. I think the terms may be confusing and overly complicating a (moderately) simple functional distinction.

                              I talk about focusing treatment on influencing function of the body rather than structure of the body. Or influencing physiology rather than anatomy. I talk a lot to patients about how I want to give the neuro system some fresh inputs and see if that results in some different outputs.

                              Meso/ecto is a fairly blunt distinction IMHO- some approaches like DNM and education are obviously ecto. But what about manual or movt therapy, needling, postural education, exercise etc?... they could fall into either camp depending on the therapists focus.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Jono,

                                I'd be somewhat surprised if your point of view is not shared among the regular participants here. The terms and level of discussion here are not necessarily directly transferrable to what terms someone will use with their patients.

                                Cory,

                                Although we may all agree to move beyond body/ mind dualistic interpretations of unexplained pain, the very language currently available to us constrains us in this undertaking.--Quinter
                                Why do you think he specifically cites "unexplained pain" versus pain in general. It seems to me that if pain is an aporia, all pain is unexplained.
                                "I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris

                                Comment

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