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  • The Nerves' Words...

    Hi SomaSimplers,
    I took the words of Michael =>

    Originally posted by Michael
    1. Normal nerves subjected to normal forces are less likely to produce symptoms.
    no symptoms: normal ADL
    2. Normal nerves under abnormal mechanical forces are more likely to produce symptoms.
    minor neural symptoms with extended use of body or abnormal or extensive repeated postures or movements that apply force to nerves. The symptoms relieve quickly and neurodynamic testing reveals very little because the nerves are not provoked at the time of examination.
    3. Sensitised nerves subjected to normal forces can produce symptoms.
    more persistent neural symptoms that don't go away as easily. Patient doesn't subject nerves to abnormal forces, ie. ADL is relatively normal but something is clearly wrong with the nerves. Neurodynamic testing is abnormal.
    4. Sensitised nerves that are subjected to abnormal forces are likely to produce symptoms.Patient is subjecting their nerves to inappropriate forces and they are abnormal. Persistent pain in spite of being very active or having bad biomechanics and subjecting the nerves to excessive or inappropriate forces. Neurodynamic testing is quite abnormal.
    It may be a fine start for this important issue?
    Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
    We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

    Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
    If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
    bernard

  • #2
    A nerve contains fascicles and ,in our example, it might have only one (simpler) and that one will be a mix of motor and sensitive fibres.



    Thus we are facing to a common nerve!
    If Nature has done a great job, these fibres would be organized by priority and the external ones would be the least important and the centred ones, the ones to protect and of bigger importance. We may consider in a same way that the external are slow and the centred, fast ones.

    Are we encountering such organized fibres, in reality? One would listen carefully the complaints of patients to collect a beginning of response.
    Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
    We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

    Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
    If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
    bernard

    Comment


    • #3
      too long bernard to read all those posts


      Emad

      Comment


      • #4
        Hi all,


        What do you make of the idea that injury is NOT required to produce abnormal responses--->increased sensitivity?

        What do you think of the notion that if there are 'weaknesses' in the body structure, eg the famous and exaggerated prolapsed disc that is not causing problems (as many do not), then cognitive processes will be quite sufficient to generate pain around the disc? The disc then becomes the culprit and surgeons start sharpening scalpels. Disc removed, all is fine, and then the pain recurs a few years later...and that area remains an AIGS (abnormal impulse generating site).

        Can we really alter that process by 'treating' the AIGS?

        (Education, yes, but not all patients are receptive!!)

        Can we modulate effectively through that AIGS?

        (Other than band-aid with techniques and modalities)

        I think we can. Do we all treat the brain when we target an AIGS?



        Nari

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi nari!
          What you refer to is what i call cognitiv emotional sensitivity!And for some it might be the stomach , the back , the neck etc This area is the patients emotional weak point,and it might also be some pathology in this area which are able confuse you and distract your focus!
          Just some thoughts!!

          RIN(spring is in the air!)

          Comment


          • #6
            Bernard

            Great images in your posts which sneaked in before mine.
            I understand your "Cartesian" representation well - and in the case of direct injury - appreciate them.


            RIN

            Quite so. Not so much a physical weakness, but an emotional one.

            But it is odd to think, that not so long ago, doctors accused patients of "making up the pain" and "it's all in their head", if they could not find an organic cause. They were half correct, but in the wrong context and with the wrong physiological assumptions. I think concepts are changing, but it is very slow.


            Nari

            Comment


            • #7
              Nari,

              In many occasions, brain is Cartesian and peripheral nerves are quite Cartesian in my view and modulation intervene at higher levels.
              I thought that it was a good idea to bring the Cartesian things (based upon physics laws) before the possible modulations (that change the rigid behaviours) introduced by spinal and brain centres.
              Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
              We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

              Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
              If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
              bernard

              Comment


              • #8
                I want to throw in a comment...

                It is a little confusing I think, to label one part of the physicality of the body Cartesian and another part not Cartesian.

                NO part of any body is "Cartesian." Cartesian refers to a way of thinking: the part of Cartesian thinking we are interested in highlighting as wrong is the theory Descartes had about pain in the human organism. His theory about pain was that special pain nerves carried a message of pain to the brain from the periphery. That part turned out to be wrong.

                That is all.

                Otherwise, most of what he said about this and that probably still stands.. And I'm still very glad he got the Catholic church to leave science alone. What a guy!
                Diane
                Diane
                www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                @PainPhysiosCan
                WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                @WCPTPTPN
                Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                @dfjpt
                SomaSimple on Facebook
                @somasimple

                "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                Comment


                • #9
                  Of course, a sensitized neuron is a far from a Cartesian one since it may produce "heat" when it is moved/stretched! :?
                  Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
                  We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

                  Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
                  If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
                  bernard

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Bernard

                    I'm glad you added the bit about sensitised nerves!

                    Nari

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Nari,

                      In my view, sensitised nerves/neurons are consequences of abnormal functionning of neural system/body. It is a "reaction" to a physical stress which may be created by a physical/virtual threat.
                      Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
                      We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

                      Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
                      If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
                      bernard

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by bernard View Post
                        I thought that it was a good idea to bring the Cartesian things (based upon physics laws) before the possible modulations (that change the rigid behaviours) introduced by spinal and brain centres.
                        I was wondering if the physics laws you're referring to are Newtonian or quantum - what difference would this make to our understanding of the way the brain/nervous system works if it were quantum probabilities rather than Newtonian? I'm only just exploring the concept of quantum physics (and physics is not my strong point anyway!!) but the little I've read suggests that the quantum approach may add something... Anyone with any 'easy to read' references?
                        It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. ~Aristotle
                        Healthskills

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Bronnie,

                          It would be very problematic and conjectural to incorporate quantum physics to anything at the functional level of neurophysiology at this point.

                          See this Hameroff link and subsequent response from the physicists in the audience.

                          Also, see this reference to the Oschmann book who tries to use quantum mechanics as an explanation and justification of CAM.
                          Cory Blickenstaff, PT, OCS

                          Pain Science and Sensibility Podcast
                          Leaps and Bounds Blog
                          My youtube channel

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            It's my understanding that quantum mechanics have nothing to do with things that don't exist in the immediate presence of immense gravitation or travel near to the speed of light.

                            None of my patients live on Mercury or the Starship Enterprise, so I don't worry about all that quantum stuff too much. It sounds cool though. Maybe that's got something to do with its popularity. Maybe. After all, how many movies have explained things by evoking the mysterious power of "radiation"?

                            Read The Quantum Scam. It's all there and I'd love to see the "energy" proponents respond to this.
                            Barrett L. Dorko

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Thanks for linking that article Barrett. It's one I've not seen before.
                              Diane
                              www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                              SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                              HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                              Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                              Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                              Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                              @PainPhysiosCan
                              WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                              @WCPTPTPN
                              Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                              @dfjpt
                              SomaSimple on Facebook
                              @somasimple

                              "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                              “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                              “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                              "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                              "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                              Comment

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