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Crossing the Chasm - Meso to Ecto

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  • #61
    I very much want to be like Jason, so I fixed my "meso to ecto" post.:angel:
    John Ware, PT
    Fellow of the American Academy of Orthopedic Manual Physical Therapists
    "Nothing can bring a man peace but the triumph of principles." -R.W. Emerson
    “If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things. If language be not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot
    be carried on to success.” -The Analects of Confucius, Book 13, Verse 3

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    • #62
      John, what we really need to see is the "before" and "after" meso-to-ecto posts.
      That way we can follow the development of meso-to-ecto reasoning. :angel:

      Mary
      Guess learning is a lifestyle, not a passtime.
      Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. ~ Isaac Asimov

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      • #63
        John, your post 58 is hilarious.
        Isn't life a lot easier when you let the patient's nervous system do most or all of its own heavy lifting?
        Diane
        www.dermoneuromodulation.com
        SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
        HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
        Neurotonics PT Teamblog
        Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
        Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
        @PainPhysiosCan
        WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
        @WCPTPTPN
        Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

        @dfjpt
        SomaSimple on Facebook
        @somasimple

        "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

        “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

        “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

        "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

        "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

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        • #64
          This is fun! Good examples! I am finding more and more when I treat patients that I am trying to figure out how to make it "ectodermal". Sometimes it is hard, but it is getting easier. These examples are helpful.

          I had a patient today who I am treating for anterior foot pain secondary to a calcaneal fracture and she was describing something she does on the subway platform when her foot hurts. It went something like this: "I bend my knee with my foot flexed and then I straighten it with my foot pointed". I looked at her and said "you are mobilizing your peroneal nerve"
          It is amazing what our bodies instinctively do.

          Erica

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          • #65
            Mary,
            I won't make another move towards that post until Jason gives me permission.

            Diane,
            Most definitely. Also, my brain likes the challenge and freedom to express itself in the interest of my patient rather than to regurgitate some scripted technique du jour in the interest of its developer.

            Erica,
            I'm still learning myself, and by no means have it "figured out." But that's part of the fun of it, too- the ongoing learning and newness of each patient interaction. I once mocked Barrett's phrase "individual ways of being," now I relish it.
            John Ware, PT
            Fellow of the American Academy of Orthopedic Manual Physical Therapists
            "Nothing can bring a man peace but the triumph of principles." -R.W. Emerson
            “If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things. If language be not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot
            be carried on to success.” -The Analects of Confucius, Book 13, Verse 3

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by John W View Post
              Mary,
              I won't make another move towards that post until Jason gives me permission.
              Well, you've only needed a minor course correction so far, so please continue. It's a good thing you have me around for such things. How did you get along without me, after all?
              Jason Silvernail DPT, DSc, FAAOMPT
              Board-Certified in Orthopedic Physical Therapy
              Fellowship-Trained in Orthopedic Manual Therapy

              Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist


              The views expressed in this entry are those of the author alone and do not reflect the official policy or position of the Department of the Army, Department of Defense, or the US Government.

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              • #67
                Creativity is allowed and encouraged, not denounced as heresy and poor technique.
                oh such luxury, to be allowed to be creative and not be a hairy tic ...

                ANdy
                "Here is Edward Bear coming downstairs now, bump, bump, bump, on the back of his head behind Christopher Robin. It is, as far as he knows, the only way of coming downstairs, but sometimes he feels that there is another way, if only he could stop bumping for a moment and think of it." A.A. Milne

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                • #68
                  I very much like your thread Jason, Thanks a lot !

                  Since you seem to be so good at making things simple and concrete , I would like you to make the samekind of «exemple» with ideomotion. As I understand what ideomotion is, I am just not shure how help it being expressed on my patients. I mean I kidda try but not sure if it is really that...

                  Or maybe Barrett could do that...

                  thanks

                  Frédéric
                  Frédéric Wellens, pht
                  «We often refuse to accept an idea merely because the tone of voice in which it has been expressed is unsympathetic to us.»
                  «
                  Those who cannot understand how to put their thoughts on ice should not enter into the heat of debate.
                  »
                  Friedrich Nietzsche
                  www.physioaxis.ca
                  chroniquesdedouleur blog

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Frederic,

                    This sentence:

                    I am just not shure how help it being expressed on my patients.
                    confuses me.

                    Should it be: "I am just not sure how it helps when expressed by my patients" or, perhaps, "I am just not sure how to help my patients express it."

                    I want to help but I need some clarification here.
                    Barrett L. Dorko

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      "I am just not sure how to help my patients express it."

                      The latter is what I meant

                      Désolé pour mon anglais

                      Merci Barrett

                      Frédéric
                      Frédéric Wellens, pht
                      «We often refuse to accept an idea merely because the tone of voice in which it has been expressed is unsympathetic to us.»
                      «
                      Those who cannot understand how to put their thoughts on ice should not enter into the heat of debate.
                      »
                      Friedrich Nietzsche
                      www.physioaxis.ca
                      chroniquesdedouleur blog

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Well, I've tried for many years and in many ways to do this in a written form and this site and my own are full of examples of that.

                        I don't feel that Simple Contact, the manual and/or verbal method I use, requires much in the way of skill but the understanding that underlies its appropriate application might take a while to acquire without the kind of information available in a place like this.

                        The difference between easy and simple is this: Easy refers to the task itself (gentle touch). Simple refers to the thought processes behind the task.

                        Simple Contact is easy, but it's not simple.
                        Barrett L. Dorko

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                        • #72
                          Simple Contact is easy, but it's not simple.
                          In light of the "chasm", Barrett, are you considering a name change? A bit of a Trojan horse, but it might grab the attention of those on the mesodermal side of the bridge.
                          John Ware, PT
                          Fellow of the American Academy of Orthopedic Manual Physical Therapists
                          "Nothing can bring a man peace but the triumph of principles." -R.W. Emerson
                          “If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things. If language be not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot
                          be carried on to success.” -The Analects of Confucius, Book 13, Verse 3

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Different cultures?

                            In the context the issue might need an approach of cultural change, maybe this piece is helpfull:
                            Attached Files
                            i keep wondering.......................

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              What an interesting paper Line.
                              Unfreeze, move, freeze, kinds of clusters... very descriptive, enlightening to some extent.

                              I guess Canada would fit under .... solar.
                              US definitely contest.

                              Canada, maybe a cross between solar and contest, trying to become more network, but too many "contest" values at the top, certainly not well-oiled except at the "queen" level.

                              As far as human primate social grooming is concerned, ortho culture definitely fits the low Uncertainty Avoidance umbrella (so does chiro IMO, which must fend for itself).

                              I think it is also a "Masculine" culture plastered onto the side of a different one (a more female one), which evolved, and which was more successful at spreading into every corner of society as a network cluster, and carried the "contest" one along like a backpack. (I think this best describes the story of PT, at least in Canada, which followed the Brit model, since its inception in 1894.)

                              I wonder how PT sees itself in other countries, using this interesting new cognitive lens?
                              Last edited by Diane; 05-02-2009, 08:47 PM.
                              Diane
                              www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                              SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                              HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                              Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                              Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                              Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                              @PainPhysiosCan
                              WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                              @WCPTPTPN
                              Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                              @dfjpt
                              SomaSimple on Facebook
                              @somasimple

                              "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                              “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                              “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                              "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                              "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Line, that is an interesting article - thanks.
                                We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin

                                I suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
                                Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

                                Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

                                We don't need a body to feel a body. Ronald Melzack

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