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  • #76
    Jono,

    I'm not sure it will help a lot in this case.
    There is a profound misunderstanding about electric and electricity.
    The latter exists only when there is an electric circuit. No such a thing seems exist in a cell or body.
    The confusion is carried with ions which are charged particles but charged particles without any electric circuits are... charged particles which do not follow the electric laws.
    Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
    We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

    Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
    If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
    bernard

    Comment


    • #77
      Back to energy networks.
      The first we could consider is an electric network but I put some doubts in the previous post.
      If the energy flows, it must flow in designed networks because energy medicine is able to make drawings of such "wires".

      Of course, we are able to measure a circulatory flow and it contains "energy".
      Of course, an action potential reflects the "vitality" of a neuron and it may be recorded quite easily.
      These examples may be described in anatomical terms and there is no continuity solution in the network.

      In energy medicine: networks are well defined in their travels
      http://www.acumedico.com/pericardium.htm

      But some aspects remain mysterious!
      There is a flow direction so energy circulates but what is the source and where goes the energy at the end of the meridian?
      Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
      We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

      Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
      If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
      bernard

      Comment


      • #78
        What do you make of the microtubule business that is all the current buzz, Bernard?
        Cory Blickenstaff, PT, OCS

        Pain Science and Sensibility Podcast
        Leaps and Bounds Blog
        My youtube channel

        Comment


        • #79
          Here is Victor Stenger's paper about microtubules. He says
          "The brain is simply too large and too hot to be a quantum device, coherent or not."
          The main problem is the scale. He says the microtubulists are off by two orders of magnitude. He's a particle physicist, so I'll take his word on that.
          Diane
          www.dermoneuromodulation.com
          SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
          HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
          Neurotonics PT Teamblog
          Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
          Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
          @PainPhysiosCan
          WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
          @WCPTPTPN
          Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

          @dfjpt
          SomaSimple on Facebook
          @somasimple

          "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

          “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

          “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

          "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

          "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by BB View Post
            What do you make of the microtubule business that is all the current buzz, Bernard?
            Cory,

            Wait a minute! I'm just starting with the electric model and it provides, already, a lot of matter for though.

            The anatomical/physical model are continuous in their description and physiology. One can follow the flow from the beginning to the end.

            The energetic model provides spots which seem artificially linked making a pleasurable meridian/pathway. It doesn't assure us the pathway is real. The wires are absent but the explanation is obvious: the flow is elsewhere in the continuum and not measurable: Simple! Of course, these spots are exits from the outer space...

            Another simpler explanation: No wire, no network and no energy!
            Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
            We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

            Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
            If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
            bernard

            Comment


            • #81
              OK Bernard. I'll be patient.

              I thought it might be a good time to think about these though because the en med folks use the microtubules as an explanation for the "wires" of communication. That is what made me think to ask.
              Cory Blickenstaff, PT, OCS

              Pain Science and Sensibility Podcast
              Leaps and Bounds Blog
              My youtube channel

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by BB View Post
                I thought it might be a good time to think about these though because the en med folks use the microtubules as an explanation for the "wires" of communication. That is what made me think to ask.
                Cory,

                It doesn't change the problem at all.
                The energy medicine is either trapped by the mysterious nature of energy or weird wires unable to convey traditional energies.
                Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
                We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

                Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
                If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
                bernard

                Comment


                • #83
                  Here is an interesting discussion on Science-based Medicine blog about the virulence of "dopa-memes", a word I made up, and define as ideas that
                  • exist solely to shape the direction of thinking toward feel-good inner experiences;
                  • have no basis in reality.
                  Diane
                  www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                  SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                  HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                  Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                  Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                  Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                  @PainPhysiosCan
                  WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                  @WCPTPTPN
                  Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                  @dfjpt
                  SomaSimple on Facebook
                  @somasimple

                  "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                  “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                  “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                  "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                  "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Cory,

                    the network is evoked in this paper:
                    Attached Files
                    Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
                    We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

                    Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
                    If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
                    bernard

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      The idea that electronic mobility and charge transfer
                      across biological polymeric molecules may be a
                      fundamental mechanism in living organisms was
                      first proposed by Szent-Gyorgyi in 1941 [8]. During
                      the next 30 years, some evidence was accumulated
                      showing that a number of proteins including collagen
                      can display semiconductive, piezoelectric and
                      photoconductive properties in vitro [9]. Whether
                      these types of electronic phenomena occur, and
                      have biological significance, in vivo, however, remains
                      unknown.
                      Ionically derived
                      potentials are known to have important local
                      downstream effects on extracellular matrix biosynthesis
                      [12] but usually decay over short distances.
                      The influence of
                      the localized stimulus may be detectable as a transient
                      change in voltage and/or current at some distance
                      from the excited region, and the time delay
                      between the original pulse and its detection at that
                      distance may be measurable.
                      Thus it may be possible
                      to measure changes
                      in the tissue’s electrical
                      properties resulting from physiologically relevant
                      mechanical stresses, as well as the extent and
                      speed of propagation of the influence of these
                      changes.
                      These connective
                      tissue fibroblasts exhibit active cytoskeletal
                      responses (spreading, lamellipodia formation)
                      within minutes of tissue lengthening [14]. Whether
                      these cytoskeletal responses are accompanied by
                      some type of cell-to-cell signaling remains unknown
                      .

                      Finally, exploring the function of connective
                      tissue as a network also should involve understanding
                      the relationship between direct
                      communication within the network, and possible
                      indirect communication via the nervous system.
                      Exciting new developments in the field of neuroplasticity
                      indicate that a two way ‘‘conversation’’ exists
                      between sensory neural pathways and target organs
                      [20]. Although connective tissue is richly innervated
                      with mechanoreceptors and nociceptors
                      ,
                      Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
                      We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

                      Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
                      If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
                      bernard

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Another country tries (normally) to find some proves that maintain the energy concept in place.
                        It is of course, China.
                        There is, these days, a plethora of paper that support traditional points of views of oriental Medicine.

                        Here is one I loved.

                        Nan Fang Yi Ke Da Xue Xue Bao. 2007 May;27(5):573-9.
                        Related Articles, Links

                        [From meridians and acupoints to self-supervision and control system: a hypothesis of the 10th functional system based on anatomical studies of digitized virtual human]

                        [Article in Chinese]

                        Wang J, Dong WR, Wang CL, Yao DW, Zhao BL, Shen BL, Yang LL, Yuan L.

                        Department of Anatomy, Southern Medical University, Guangzhou 510515, China. whmzyq@fimmu.com

                        Chinese acupuncture and moxibustion has been widely accepted as a useful therapeutics all over the world, but its mechanism has not been fully defined. For this purpose, a reticular framework of whole-body fascia and connective tissues has been established by means of digitized virtual human technique. The virtual acupoints represented three-dimensionally were compared with the sites for stimulation in practice of traditional Chinese medicine (TCM) acupuncture therapy. The results showed that the fascial network constituted by the connective tissues may be the anatomical basis for acupuncture therapy. We found that the acupoints were mainly located where thick connective tissues were present. In this fascial network, sensitive nerve endings, active cells and lymphatic vessels abounded in the sites with thick connective tissue, and needling at these sites induced definite biological effects. In light of biological phylogeny and embryo development, we believe that the connective tissue network may constitute a new functional system in the human body, the Self-supervision and control system (Fasciology), which provides a theoretical base for acupuncture therapy.

                        Publication Types:PMID: 17545059 [PubMed - in process]

                        Perhaps may I ask a silly question: Are these sensitive nerve endings connected elsewhere? :angel:
                        Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
                        We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

                        Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
                        If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
                        bernard

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          The paper cited in post 84 is intriguing:

                          Docteur H Langevin explores some possible forces that may flow in the fascia. Strangely this cautious exploration ends with abrupt statements:

                          Originally posted by Docteur Langevin
                          The idea that electronic mobility and charge transfer
                          across biological polymeric molecules may be a
                          fundamental mechanism in living organisms was
                          first proposed by Szent-Gyorgyi in 1941 [8]. During
                          the next 30 years, some evidence was accumulated
                          showing that a number of proteins including collagen
                          can display semiconductive, piezoelectric and
                          photoconductive properties in vitro [9]. Whether
                          these types of electronic phenomena occur, and
                          have biological significance, in vivo, however, remains
                          unknown.
                          The reader may conclude in many ways:
                          • Some evidences were observed in vitro but science is actually unable to track them in vivo.
                          • Some facts were experimented in vitro but do not occur in vivo.

                          Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
                          We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

                          Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
                          If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
                          bernard

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            But Doctor Langevin says:
                            The influence of
                            the localized stimulus may be detectable as a transient
                            change in voltage and/or current at some distance
                            from the excited region, and the time delay
                            between the original pulse and its detection at that
                            distance may be measurable.
                            Was it measured?
                            1. Yes, like any electrical activity.
                            2. No but it escapes to normal and scientific measurement.
                            3. No because there is no such activity.
                            Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
                            We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

                            Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
                            If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
                            bernard

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Another important thing where Doctor Langevin is silent is the well known nature of these electrochemical processses.
                              They are called Redox Reactions

                              Absence of measurement and inability to cite a process is mother of nullity.
                              Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
                              We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

                              Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
                              If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
                              bernard

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Very interesting conversation! I don't practice energy medicine nor have any current interest in pursuing it. I'm a pretty mundane hands-on massage therapist that likes having a rational explanation for the techniques I use.

                                However...

                                In years of studying martial arts, and later upon entering massage studies, I had several experiences that I still cannot explain. Here is one of the most dramatic examples:

                                A martial artist claimed he could do various energy-based things, that he was self-taught and had started to teach others. Curious, I asked for a demo and he agreed on the spot. Cool, I thought... I'd studied aikido and had read about various ki and chi-based martial arts stuff... we sat down on the dojo floor and at his direction I held up my hand. He sat a short distance from me and held his hand up about a foot from mine. I closed my eyes, and he asked me to see if I felt anything happen.

                                After a minute or so my palm began getting very warm, and after a while my hand was shaking, yet my arm felt relaxed. I felt as if the warmth was being pushed through the middle of my forearm towards my elbow. The sensation was not painful, but it felt... uncontrolled and forced, and I didn't like it.

                                Rather than just break contact, I tried an idea from aikido's "unbendable arm" - I visualized a jet of water flowing through my arm and out of my hand. The warmth and shaking in my arm immediately ceased as if flushed out, and I heard a sudden noise. Opening my eyes, the martial artist was sitting back a foot or so farther away, with his hand well away from mine. His eyes were very wide when he asked what I'd done. Apparently he'd been trying to "send energy" into my hand, and thought things were going well... until he felt "the flow" reverse and shoot weird sensations up through his arm into his shoulder. Scared, he'd quickly broken contact.

                                Not understanding what the hell had just happened, I gently suggested that if a duffer like me could so easily reverse things on him, perhaps he shouldn't be teaching yet...

                                I still don't know what actually happened that day. I'd love to know, but for now it's just an interesting experience that helps remind me that I still have much to learn.
                                Novice Woo Shoo Kung Foo practitioner. Experienced critic of Truthiness.
                                "It used to be, everyone was entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts. But that's not the case anymore. Facts matter not at all...Truthiness is 'What I say is right, and [nothing] anyone else says could possibly be true.' " - Stephen Colbert

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