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  • #46
    Or the energy medicine model needs that a cell that's able to direct energy like this:
    Attached Files
    Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
    We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

    Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
    If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
    bernard

    Comment


    • #47
      Bernard,

      Is this last drawing demonstrating what is needed for a field or directional channeleing?
      Cory Blickenstaff, PT, OCS

      Pain Science and Sensibility Podcast
      Leaps and Bounds Blog
      My youtube channel

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by BB View Post
        Bernard,

        Is this last drawing demonstrating what is needed for a field or directional channeling?
        Actual knowledge shows that an electric field is omni directional and perpendicular to cell surface.

        This drawing is needed to give a plausible explanation to energy medicine but this drawing contradicts physics and observations.
        Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
        We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

        Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
        If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
        bernard

        Comment


        • #49
          :thumbs_up
          quite a simple way of looking at it. Is it possible that once the cells emit their energy across the membrane circumferentially that it is then gathered and directed as a directional flow of some kind?

          If so, what would be needed for this to occur?
          Cory Blickenstaff, PT, OCS

          Pain Science and Sensibility Podcast
          Leaps and Bounds Blog
          My youtube channel

          Comment


          • #50
            Cory,

            The only example we have is the torpedo fish and it is not energy but a big ionic flow that occurs within some thousand cells at the same time. It is just electricity and it last very quickly. Since ions change of location in this case it creates electricity and EF exists because ions move.

            Originally posted by BB
            Is it possible that once the cells emit their energy across the membrane circumferentially that it is then gathered and directed as a directional flow of some kind?
            That is a question that has no response from the alternative side. I bet they avoid it.

            The scientific side will simply add some more oil on fire about the subject...
            Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
            We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

            Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
            If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
            bernard

            Comment


            • #51
              So Scientists bring another aspect that is ever neglected by CAM.
              It is the problem of distance. Pure physics but so rude!
              It is called the inverse square law.
              Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
              We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

              Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
              If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
              bernard

              Comment


              • #52
                I thought it was high time to link Jason's thread at EIM to this one, where we are deconstructing the "energy medicine" that underpins MFR. It has been posted to quite a number of times, so far. It seems many who frequent EIM are or were unaware just how deep this particular craziness goes. They tend to be quite an activist bunch - it will be interesting to see if they (along with we) can point to it collectively and all go "YUCK!" loud enough and in concert enough for anyone to hear.
                Diane
                www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                @PainPhysiosCan
                WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                @WCPTPTPN
                Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                @dfjpt
                SomaSimple on Facebook
                @somasimple

                "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                Comment


                • #53
                  Here is a link to the Brain Science Podcast Forum, a place where anyone reading this thread who is interested in getting off the "energy medicine" bandwagon should go. I would hope that includes all PTs, at least. There you will find all sorts of links to podcasts about the brain - it should make the transition more painless. Good luck deprogramming yourselves. :angel:
                  Diane
                  www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                  SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                  HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                  Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                  Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                  Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                  @PainPhysiosCan
                  WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                  @WCPTPTPN
                  Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                  @dfjpt
                  SomaSimple on Facebook
                  @somasimple

                  "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                  “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                  “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                  "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                  "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    This is a post I made here. I'll be continuing with this subject on this thread as it is general to energy medicine and not just MFR.
                    ..............................

                    Here is my understanding of what is meant in chemistry and physics when speaking of a vibrational state. From the link:

                    Quote:
                    Vibronic transitions are the simultaneous changes in electronic and vibrational energy levels of a molecule due to the absorption or emission of a photon of the appropriate energy. The principle states that during an electronic transition, a change from one vibrational energy level to another will be more likely to happen if the two vibrational wave functions overlap more significantly.
                    In order to understand these vibrational states we must know something about the properties of photons. From this link:

                    Quote:
                    Apart from having energy, a photon also carries momentum and has a polarization. It follows the laws of quantum mechanics, which means that often these properties do not have a well-defined value for a given photon. Rather, they are defined as a probability to measure a certain polarization, position, or momentum. For example, although a photon can excite a single molecule, it is often impossible to predict beforehand which molecule will be excited.
                    The discovery of the characteristics of photons were made possible by the work of Einstein. The concept of the "energy in the world all being connected" and therefore statements such as "if there were more love there would be no disease" are, I believe, brought about because of this property of photons:

                    Quote:
                    The photon concept has led to momentous advances in experimental and theoretical physics, such as lasers, Bose–Einstein condensation, quantum field theory, and the probabilistic interpretation of quantum mechanics. According to the Standard Model of particle physics, photons are responsible for producing all electric and magnetic fields, and are themselves the product of requiring that physical laws have a certain symmetry at every point in spacetime. The intrinsic properties of photons—such as charge, mass and spin—are determined by the properties of this gauge symmetry.
                    The energy medicine interpretation of this phenomenon is used to explain things like distance healing, telepathy, mind reading, etc. because all of our energy is "connected."

                    Quantum theory grew out of what was revealed by relativity theory by the work of Neils Bohr and Heisenberg. The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle started it all. Einsein didn't buy it, but eventually conceded that it (quantum theory) is in fact supported but is in conflict with other supported principles of relativity. Thus, Einstein spent the end of his career in an unsuccessful attempt to come up with a Unified Theory to reconcile the opposing findings of physics. He suspected the opposition was due to the fact that we didn't sufficiently understand what it was they were attempting to describe.

                    Relativity theory predicted some strange phenomena of space time, such as time is relative and therefore someone traveling at the speed of light will age more slowly than someone who is not (the concept of which has been proved). Quantum theory predicted strange phenomenon like alternate universes. According to quantum theory there are other versions of us on the other side of the universe (the concept of which is well supported).

                    The fact that the universe acts in ways predicted by quantum theory is now accepted. However, as Diane said, in order to appreciate these phenomenon physicists had to consider something as large as the universe or as small as the atom. The environment we occupy, on the earth, acts as Newton would have predicted.

                    Now, I'm not saying that quantum theory plays no role in our lives, as we are obviously a part of the universe. However, to my knowledge, even physicists do not yet understand the application of quantum physics to use it to explain the phenomenon we are discussing. See the video of Hameroff as he presents his ideas to physicists. To do so prematurely is, as Diane says, pseudoscience.

                    I'm going to end this long post. But, the next thing we need to discuss is why was "vibrational state" ever even proposed as a theory. Well, I'd suspect there are several, but the one that is the most rational candidate is the argument that the nervous system is too slow to account for some things. More on that later. I'm tired of typing...
                    __________________
                    Cory Blickenstaff, PT, OCS

                    Pain Science and Sensibility Podcast
                    Leaps and Bounds Blog
                    My youtube channel

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Now onto the issue of speed.

                      The speed with which energy is said to "communicate" is the speed of light. This of course is more than fast enough to explain the speed of processing we see in humans. This foundation invites 2 questions. 1) Can you call what energy does in us communication? (we'll get to this in a later post) 2) Doesn't the nervous system speed account for this?

                      I was actually unaware of any weight to the argument that the nervous system is not fast enough to account for what we see in terms of communication as is needed in humans. But, evidently there is a potential problem. See what Buzsaki wrote .
                      See p. 33 under "large scale organization..."

                      So, it looks like there is some weight to the argument.........but wait! Buzsaki's book "Rhythms in the Brain" brings about findings reconciling this problem through.......THE NERVOUS SYSTEM.

                      See this thread by Diane on the book.

                      So, energy is not necessary to explain the speed problem with the nervous system because no such problem exists after all.

                      So, next let's think about what is needed for "communication" and if energy even meets that criteria.
                      Cory Blickenstaff, PT, OCS

                      Pain Science and Sensibility Podcast
                      Leaps and Bounds Blog
                      My youtube channel

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by BB View Post
                        :thumbs_up
                        quite a simple way of looking at it. Is it possible that once the cells emit their energy across the membrane circumferentially that it is then gathered and directed as a directional flow of some kind?

                        If so, what would be needed for this to occur?

                        Perhaps the target attracts the energy emission if indeed it does gather as one directional flow?

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Oops. I forgot to add the link to p. 33 of Buzsaki's book below. As I said, look under "large scale organization..." on p. 33.
                          Cory Blickenstaff, PT, OCS

                          Pain Science and Sensibility Podcast
                          Leaps and Bounds Blog
                          My youtube channel

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Bob,

                            That is what I was getting at with my question to Bernard. Such an "attraction" would be necessary for a "flow" to occur. Now, is there support for such a thing? Buzsaki supports Bernards contention and his findings suggest that temporal discharge is what is important in wave propagation.

                            Do you have support to the contrary?

                            He kindly supplies all of his research on his webpage. I'd suggest reading the 2002 article "Theta oscillations in the hippocampus."
                            Cory Blickenstaff, PT, OCS

                            Pain Science and Sensibility Podcast
                            Leaps and Bounds Blog
                            My youtube channel

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              No I do not. just answering the question with a hypothetical. I'll keep looking however. What could activate such an attraction? If energy is present, why can't it be measured?
                              All good questions.
                              Both X-rays and radioactivity were discovered by accident a little over a 100 years ago. Someday someone might discover an unknown energy so until then we will stick with what we know, eh?

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                This case is made impossible
                                http://www.somasimple.com/forums/sho...1&postcount=46
                                and the previous, not really advantageous
                                http://www.somasimple.com/forums/sho...7&postcount=43

                                The inverse square law predicts that effects will last some nanometers from origin.

                                BTW, many cells are already connected with aquaporins and neurons have gap junctions. This enables another mechanical "communication" and its speed is well known and far from those claimed by energy medicine.

                                It is around 1600 ms-1 in fluids and 3000 ms-1 in bones.

                                Since nervous system is limited to 150/200 ms-1, information is lost in the Void: not proceeded.
                                Last edited by bernard; 13-02-2008, 07:46 AM. Reason: links
                                Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
                                We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

                                Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
                                If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
                                bernard

                                Comment

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