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  • #16
    I also want to address this quote:
    "It hasn't been discovered or uncovered yet. Therefore I can not deny its presence emphatically and I for one do not espouse its presence either." (from the Holocene thread).

    This really does not hold water as an argument to consider the possibility of another "energy". This type of argument applies to green apples on Mars, telekinesis, the existence of Klingons, etc etc.
    I just look at the neutrino research 2 miles under the Canadian shield (the SNO project) where neutrino's are detected. Neutrinos that have travelled from the sun. And are rather tiny. Our ability to detect infinitisimally tiny bursts of energy 2 miles under rock leads me to believe that there is little to no chance that we suddenly discover an "energy" that can be recruited by hands-on and heal. Except of course, if we use energy as a loose sysnonym for brain functions....
    Last edited by Bas Asselbergs; 05-02-2008, 01:44 PM. Reason: added reference
    We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin

    I suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
    Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

    Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

    We don't need a body to feel a body. Ronald Melzack

    Comment


    • #17
      The most disturbing part of the above videos is the opening slide which reads "An excerpt of: Medicaid and Medicare services".

      The public is led to believe that the information that follows is endorsed by Medicaid/Medicare.

      Comment


      • #18
        A standard part of anyone's education should include something along the lines of Smart people believe weird things.

        I've no doubt that the dean Bas mentions as well as many practitioners of energy medicine are smart people.
        "I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Bas
          there is little to no chance that we suddenly discover an "energy" that can be recruited by hands-on and heal.
          I agree with you Bas but they'll find another one =>
          http://www.spacedaily.com/news/darkmatter-02d.html
          Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
          We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

          Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
          If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
          bernard

          Comment


          • #20
            Thanks for those links Jon and Bernard. The dean is very adamant that she has "discovered" a gem that deserves more attention, because the ONE time she had a problem, "it" helped. It is likely that the trauma she suffered and the pain associated with it, were so significant to her nervous system, that the very gentle and calm care did wonders for the re-boot of the nervous adaptations and "healing".
            Bernard, the dark energy and dark matter issue has been around for a long time - it seems to be coming closer to being proven. I know you were kidding, but many of the "energy" therapy proponents tend to point at these ideas and say: "see?"
            As if physical theories about physical phenomena - within the existing laws of physics - are comparable with the esoteric and mysterious energy that can be felt by hands off the body and can be directed by the intent and mind only. I call that effect - a neurological one (olfactory effects included - see Barrett's thread).
            We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin

            I suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
            Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

            Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

            We don't need a body to feel a body. Ronald Melzack

            Comment


            • #21
              Michael Shermer's article, Smart People Believe Weird Things, is worth a read.

              I liked,
              Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons
              and
              ...we need to teach that science is not a database of unconnected factoids but a set of methods designed to describe and interpret phenomena, past or present, aimed at building a testable body of knowledge open to rejection or confirmation.

              For those lacking a fundamental comprehension of how science works, the siren song of pseudoscience becomes too alluring to resist, no matter how smart you are.
              Eric Matheson, PT

              Comment


              • #22
                I think there are three major questions to ask of an energy medicine proponent as it pertains to their specific energy of interest:

                1.) Can you detect the energy?
                2.) Can you discern the energy?
                3.) Can you predictably manipulate the energy?
                "I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris

                Comment


                • #23
                  I would want to ask them for papers that explain what the "energy" is, that are not by Oschman or Hameroff.
                  Diane
                  www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                  SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                  HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                  Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                  Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                  Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                  @PainPhysiosCan
                  WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                  @WCPTPTPN
                  Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                  @dfjpt
                  SomaSimple on Facebook
                  @somasimple

                  "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                  “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                  “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                  "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                  "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Trust Stephen Colbert to bring some humor to the topic of scientific inquiry
                    An excerpt from Stephen's interview with Michael Shermer.

                    “You are saying that reality can be codified objectively, and I am here to tell you that reality is what I say it is, because if I can create enough points of fact that support what I believe, everyone else will believe it also, and through my will, I will create the future I want.”
                    Eric Matheson, PT

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I'd love to watch that, and the link works, but the video doesn't seem to play.
                      Diane
                      www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                      SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                      HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                      Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                      Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                      Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                      @PainPhysiosCan
                      WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                      @WCPTPTPN
                      Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                      @dfjpt
                      SomaSimple on Facebook
                      @somasimple

                      "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                      “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                      “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                      "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                      "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        From Shermer's book Why People Believe Weird Things

                        A theory may be contrasted with a construct: a nontestable statement to account for a set of observations. The living organisms on Earth may be accounted for by the statement "God made them" or the statement "They evolved." The first statement is a construct, the second a theory.
                        It seems to me that many (if not all) energy medicine approaches are constructs. I wonder if they moved their level of analysis up (but not too far up!) from "energy" if they'd succeed as theories?
                        Last edited by Jon Newman; 06-02-2008, 05:15 AM.
                        "I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I'd love to watch that, and the link works, but the video doesn't seem to play.
                          There is a Canadian version out there on the web someplace if you're interested enough. Comedy Central is notorious for their pain in the butt video player.
                          "I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Here is Harriet Hall's review of Oschman's book on "energy medicine".
                            Diane
                            www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                            SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                            HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                            Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                            Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                            Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                            @PainPhysiosCan
                            WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                            @WCPTPTPN
                            Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                            @dfjpt
                            SomaSimple on Facebook
                            @somasimple

                            "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                            “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                            “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                            "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                            "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Linking 2 of Jon's posts together would, I think, be most helpful.

                              I think there are three major questions to ask of an energy medicine proponent as it pertains to their specific energy of interest:

                              1.) Can you detect the energy?
                              2.) Can you discern the energy?
                              3.) Can you predictably manipulate the energy?
                              Something possibly helpful in attempting to answer these questions are what exactly the energy is that they are attempting to measure. Here is the link Jon provided in the second post (just putting them together for convenience).

                              Perhaps an example will be helpful. In the link provided, Qi Gong is provided as an example of putative energy field medicine. This is, I believe, a form of Tai Chi (Chris?) and I don't know how this is considered putative (vibrational) energy except there is talk of meridians. And, as demonstrated in Eric's videos it is supposed to "unblock" this energy field? For this to be true we have to assume a few things as true. 1st is the existence of meridians. Does anybody know what meridians are and how its presence can be observed as per Jon's questions?

                              Check out this excerpt from Carol Davis' book. It speaks some of meridians.
                              Last edited by BB; 06-02-2008, 06:05 PM. Reason: fixed link
                              Cory Blickenstaff, PT, OCS

                              Pain Science and Sensibility Podcast
                              Leaps and Bounds Blog
                              My youtube channel

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Cory,

                                the first link is not valid.
                                Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
                                We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

                                Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
                                If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
                                bernard

                                Comment

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