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  • Which should lead you to conclude that anyone who is not a physicist of the caliber of Feynman should not be invoking quantum mechanics as part of an explanation. It gets us no further ahead than if we say 'god did it'. It is pointless. We need explanations that occur in real time with real people. Much of what you have said regarding your treatments and interactions with clients sounds, to me, very NOT physiotherapy but rather some hodgepodge of new age psychobabble and wishful thinking. I am happy that you are not in my jurisdiction so I don't have to contact anyone in authority to look into your practice.

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    • Jurisdiction? Practice? We don't where it is!

      I doubt it's in Ohio.
      Barrett L. Dorko

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      • True enough, Barrett. However, I seem to think she's (he's?) in Australia. Which means far from me in Canada.

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        • Australia? Hard to tell.

          There are many deadly things there.

          Sorry Nari.
          Barrett L. Dorko

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          • Originally posted by Agashem View Post
            Much of what you have said regarding your treatments and interactions with clients sounds, to me, very NOT physiotherapy ...

            Yeh it's not physio, although it does appear that way to the casual observer. Physios are allowed to use psychological techniques if they have sufficient understanding and skill in their use.

            Let's hear about you. What do you do for chronic back pain? Twice weekly mobs for 6 months? Education? Does it work, or you find things just drag on forever with only mild change?
            Last edited by EG-Physio; 07-07-2017, 08:11 AM.

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            • This is not a pissing match between what I think and do and what you think and do. You have laid out a premise and backed it with not very much. Criticizing me and my practice will not make your practice any more scientific, evidence based or physiotherapeutic. As someone once said, mixing cow pie with apple pie does not make the cow pie taste any better.

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              • Recently, I came across two separate web recordings by people regarding energy healing - one of them a practitioner. They were very sobering. I have mentioned several times that I'd ceased using hypnosis a long time ago. Well now I've put a 'pause' on the use of energy healing too, for much the same reason.

                One of these recordings mentioned the exact side effects I'd witnessed with patients, so I knew he was speaking from experience - this is rare. These are side effects you simply do not hear or read about anywhere, unless you go digging deeply. For such a long time I'd be emailing hypnotists and healers from around the world asking about these strange reactions and I'd get some bland, generic reply indicating they themselves were not able to powerfully affect their own patients. If they could do it, then surely they would have observed these things happening themselves?

                You will hear many people talk about energy healing, and 99% of the time, such practitioners are powerless to affect any change. Then it's safe - safe in its ineffectiveness. If you want to see what 'ineffective' looks like, visit your local energy healer. But what if you can actually manipulate these energies? Then what? Then it gets very precarious because there's virtually no one around to mentor or guide you. One needs to know very early on you should never use these techniques to relieve symptoms. That's probably the most important warning right there.

                When the TV doco-series 'The Healer' goes to air, hopefully later this year, I will be glued to the screen. I'll be very interested to see how it pans out for both the practitioner and the patients. CG may well be doing things in a way which is beyond anything I can imagine; in fact I'm sure of it, and I'm keen to learn anything I can. A big TV production company is not going to spend 2 months filming if the results aren't quite extraordinary. I'll be watching with a slightly different perspective however. Hopefully they include follow-up meetings with patients.

                Current question:

                Should healing ever be employed, even if it's sufficiently deep to avoid unintended consequences?
                Last edited by EG-Physio; 27-07-2017, 05:24 AM.

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                • Anybody talking about "energy healing" and "manipulating energy" needs to learn more. about basic laws of nature, human neurophysiology and complexity of the pain experience. Employ healing?
                  We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin

                  I suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
                  Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

                  Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

                  We don't need a body to feel a body. Ronald Melzack

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                  • In the coaching community, many use various devices such as parachutes for resistance training and surgical tubing or block and tackle cabling for sprint assisted/overspeed work. I dropped using those things 25 years ago after I found them problematic from a safety standpoint, and questionable regarding any evidence as to what were the gains from those protocols. Nevertheless, coaches still use them. In fact, one of my former runners who is now a college sophomore was photographed running with a resistance parachute. There is now a special piece of equipment that can set the speed for either resisted or assisted training. And many of my contemporaries believe in the efficacy of these training techniques. My guiding principle in considering these things: do no harm.

                    Regarding energy medicine, I guess it comes down to whether or not a therapist considers such techniques harmful, and if patients seem to respond favorably, and believe they are better as a result, it becomes more difficult to make a case for their being harmed by the technique.

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                    • Ken, the problem with the explanations of energy medicine or energy healing is the associated information accompanying the treatment. Research shows that accurate knowledge of neurophysiology of pain is more readily accepted and understood cognitively than practitioners (Moseley). Filling a patient's head with fairy-tale-like information, unsupported by scientific evidence or even plausibility, makes for bad professional approaches. It does not mean it is ineffective - it teaches a patient the wrong stuff. Any info they get from such a practitioner is not forever associated with pain, and will need THAT special approach to help them.
                      Hence my objection to that, to homeopathy, MFR, CST, past-life-regression therapy, reiki, manual alignment corrections, andsoforth.
                      We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin

                      I suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
                      Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

                      Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

                      We don't need a body to feel a body. Ronald Melzack

                      Comment


                      • Filling a patient's head with fairy-tale-like information, unsupported by scientific evidence or even plausibility, makes for bad professional approaches. It does not mean it is ineffective - it teaches a patient the wrong stuff.
                        Hi Bas!
                        I very much agree, but how effective are therapists in getting colleagues to re-think their positions? Have we really been successful in conveying our concerns over bad professional approaches and teaching the wrong stuff?

                        When we discuss these issues with new members, if they don't agree, they just go away, perhaps feeling we are the ones who are close minded and critical of change. Have we benefitted them in some way? Perhaps we will never know unless they come back--or remain active members because they see some benefit in consistently being challenged.

                        I sincerely believe that many members here, those who have been around for quite a while, at some point looked at what they were doing and decided to change their approach because it simply didn't make much sense to them in light of what they learned from current research. I think that is a rare quality. It requires acknowledging that we might have been wrong about things, and then accepting that others might be able to help us get a little closer to being right on issues that mean so much to us.



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                        • Ken, you are absolutely right.
                          My thinking is that this a discussion forum. People come here to discuss, debate or propose ideas to bounce them around. My HOPE is that those who do not understand the need for science-based thinking in the manual professions, find a place where info eventually changes their thinking.
                          I always go back to my initial encounters with Barrett. I was not at all ready to make cognitive changes.
                          After about a year-and-a-half, Barrett (and Mel Siff) and a Butler course, and finally admitting that I really did not know what the hell I was really doing, made me change my thnking.
                          Now, I am just one individual, but I am a professional, and when I see a colleague proposing we withhold information from patients, NOT tell them what is going on, in order to facilitate "energy healing" , I MUST speak up.

                          Looking back at threads and communication with PTs, I see many who have made the change - but it took time and consistent effort on all parties (including me, to keep calm and rehash the same arguments with different people).
                          I do not think there is ANY sure-fire way to change anyone's mind, until they are ready themselves.

                          All I can do is speak out in a consistent way.
                          We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin

                          I suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
                          Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

                          Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

                          We don't need a body to feel a body. Ronald Melzack

                          Comment


                          • After about a year-and-a-half, Barrett (and Mel Siff) and a Butler course, and finally admitting that I really did not know what the hell I was really doing, made me change my thinking.
                            Hi Bas!

                            Our situations are similar. I have spent the last twenty years of my coaching career undoing the mistakes I made and the misconceptions I developed in the first twenty.

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                            • I stopped using it because it works - it works, and it has unintended consequences, much like Vicodin. What I learned was that patients need their symptoms to be maintained and not interfered with. If I ever use such a technique again, it will only be if I can target the deeper source of the symptoms. That is my current line of enquiry, but it won't be easy. Most sources for EM are unreliable and it takes a lot of sifting.

                              To target the source, I'd need to know what that source is. Structural change usually doesn't play much of a role in creating pain, so that leaves the mind (thoughts). The conscious mind is, for the most part, powerless, so that leaves the subconscious as the source of pain. The process of pain generation is likely to be excessive subconscious cogitation. The cure is likely to be a re-setting of the subconscious, much like is achieved with ECT for chronic pain.

                              Please don't misrepresent my work as you have here. Dismissing something without even studying it is offensive. There would be no need to experiment like this if the current BPS models were effective. EM has quality scientific evidence in the animal experiments of Bill Bengston. There's also a list of lesser quality experiments here: http://www.thehealingtrust.org.uk/node/134
                              Last edited by EG-Physio; 29-07-2017, 09:55 AM.

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                              • Hi Eg!

                                Wasn't Bengston himself the healer in his own research?

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