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  • #76
    Okay, Dr.Cobb has been invited both through the web site and his personal email address.
    Barrett L. Dorko

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    • #77
      Hi Geoff,

      You state,

      If so then we can all agree that human performance is nothing more advanced than movement and varying degrees of movement.
      I think this is important. I've tried to take on the following operational definitions as they seem reasonable. At least to the extent that I understand them. The whole text can be found herefor anyone interested in more.

      Let us start by defining actions. Actions, for some classes of nervous systems, are elementary building blocks of reality, too. Some kinds of organisms have developed agent-detecting modules, and some of them also conceive of themselves as agents. They have an extended ontology, because their reality has been considerably
      enriched. Let us call such systems possessors of an “action ontology.” We now have to distinguish movements, behavior, and actions. Bodily movements are simple physical events, and they can be represented accordingly. Behaviors are movements that are goal-directed, i.e. which can meaningfully be described as directed towards a set of satisfaction conditions, but without necessarily being linked to an explicit and conscious representation of such conditions [5]. A dramatic example is presented by a neurological disorder known as anarchic hand syndrome [6]. As simple motor acts, they also do not have a reward-producing component (Rizzolatti et al.,2001, p. 668). In particular, behavior is something that can take place in the absence of conscious self-attribution.

      Actions are a specific subset of goal-directed movements: a series of movements that are functionally integrated with a currently active goal representation as leading to a reward constitute an action. Therefore, an action is not isomorphic to a particular movement or specific behavioral pattern, because many different movements
      can constitute the same goal-directed action. What individuates an action is the set of satisfaction conditions defining the representational content of its goal component as leading to a reward plus the special way in which it is causally linked to the actual event of overt movement generation. In particular, an action results from a selection process (which may or may not be conscious) and a representation of the system as a whole as standing in a certain relation to a specific goal-state (which is phenomenally represented, e.g. globally available via short-term memory).

      The second defining characteristic is that an action in the true sense not only involves an explicit and conscious self-representation, but also a representation of the perspective the system now takes onto the world. That is, the selection process may well be unconscious, but it inevitably leads to a more global final stage resulting in a conscious representation of the system as a whole—as having an intention, as initiating and executing its own bodily movements. In other words, on the phenomenal level we always find a corresponding global state in which the system as a whole is itself represented as an agent.
      Some other thoughts:

      The blog that was excerpted was my private blog for my thoughts on Z-Health and its role in rehabbing my multiple injuries and getting me back on the weightlifting platform.
      What I will do is try to put forth some scientific concepts, without sarcasm, innuendo, or personal attack that we can all hopefully agree on that will give us some common ground upon which to not only stand but to move forward in understanding what Z-Health is and what it does.
      Is Z-health something other than a marketing package of known principles of physiology (along with some false ones)? I mean there aren't some people in z health and the rest of the world right? You don't take z-health like a pill or have it performed upon you like a surgery. If so, what principles are included in the marketing package known as zhealth that are lacking from other iterations of physical training?
      "I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Diane View Post
        Greg, on this forum we tend to look skeptically behind, underneath, through, upsidedown at everything. We have to or we're sc***ded.

        Proprioception is one sort of input the brain uses to know where it's organism is in space. There is a whole bunch of other input (interoception of all sorts from every kind of tissue everywhere) that it uses to determine its "health".

        I guess I am allergic to all this stuff mainly because of the chirohook thing. We've had lots of discussions here in the past about intellectual honesty and memes and memeplexes and so on. So let's deconstruct this a bit. The very first red flaggy thing that is apparent is the name of the system. What is that word "health" doing in the title?

        In my mind, this system is for non-pathological people who are trying to optimize their performance levels. I don't question the term "performance" or that it's a "system" but the inclusion of the term "health" to me just is needless bait to attract suckers to the training. And that use of the term "z" which appears to be perfectly meaningless, is the "hook", buried inside the bait. When someone asks what it means, the proprietor of the system has the asker nodding along while he's explaining it earnestly. It's already too late - the sucker is hooked and feeling the love, falling all over himself to spend $2000 or whatever on this training. Which may seem great to a fitness trainer or whatever, but around here we aren't too intrigued by any of this stuff. We are immune to the seductive charm of charismatic chiro snake oil sellers and it just smells pseudoscientific right from the start. It is so typical, such a standard tactic used by chiro types to separate people from their money.

        At best, I'd sum the whole thing up by saying that it's all pretty much window dressing, repackaging of old stuff that is a novel stimulus to a fitness trainer's mind (it must get a bit boring, flinging that kettle thingy around after awhile..).

        I mean you and the other posters on this topic no disrespect, but personally I am not especially interested in having this forum become a site that advertises by default a system that does not feed the scientific curiosity of PTs and instead focuses their attention back on mesoderm with only lip service paid to ectodermal unravellings. So we may actually lock the thread, disable the links, but leave it intact as an example of where we do NOT want this forum to go.
        Diane, It's Geoff, not Greg. I can see how the G would confuse you. It's happened all my life.

        I think you mean "sc***ed," right?

        I understand you skepticism. My wife's a PT as I mentioned and I don't particularly like Chiros.

        The Z stands for some Russian word which I can't pronounce let alone spell (linguistics aren't my thing) that stands for "movement." And actually, I went kicking and screaming to Z simply because my physiatrist friend, who is so smart he's like a PT on steroids, couldn't get me out of pain and into performance.

        The word "health" is in the title because without health, you can only have short-term performance without it. (The name Jesse Marunde ring a bell? He was the US's #1 World's Strongest Man Competitor this year. He just died at age 27 from a heart attack. Great performance. Poor health.)

        Here's the link to Z's FAQ. It may feed your scientific curiosity or not. http://www.zhealth. net/zhealth-getting-started. asp

        As I mentioned before, I don't get paid to advertise for Z-Health. For me you just tell people about the good things you're experiencing because you want them to experience them too.

        Unfortunately, this is turning into a p***ing match which it's not supposed to be. Personal attacks are unfounded and unprofessional.

        Here's what I know about Z: It helps me and it helps my clients where other approaches didn't. I didn't particularly like spending 2 grand to learn the info, but it's been worth it.

        I wish you and the others the best of success in your endeavors in helping people get out of pain and into performance.
        Last edited by Diane; 05-08-2007, 09:54 PM.

        Comment


        • #79
          There's been NO personal attack here.
          Barrett L. Dorko

          Comment


          • #80
            Diane, It's Geoff, not Greg. I can see how the G would confuse you. It's happened all my life.
            Ooops. Sorry, yes I mean Geoff. Apologies.

            I think you mean "sc***ed," right?
            Right.
            I don't get paid to advertise for Z-Health
            Really, you're good at it - you should charge.
            I'll be in to your post to disable your link. I don't want to make it easy for this site to link to that site, but neither do I want it to impossible for people to go there if they must.

            It may feed your scientific curiosity or not
            Probably not. My scientific curiosity is a picky eater.

            I wish you and the others the best of success in your endeavors in helping people get out of pain and into performance.
            I wish you the same. I think most of us here start with folks from way further back than you do. Most of the people I treat are just happy to be able to live a life without pain, full stop - aren't trying out for teams or anything.
            Diane
            www.dermoneuromodulation.com
            SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
            HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
            Neurotonics PT Teamblog
            Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
            Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
            @PainPhysiosCan
            WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
            @WCPTPTPN
            Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

            @dfjpt
            SomaSimple on Facebook
            @somasimple

            "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

            “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

            “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

            "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

            "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

            Comment


            • #81
              I checked the website and the links within it. Nothing scientific here - no references, no sound theoretical model - nada, niente, nichts, niks, zero, null...I think I made my point.
              It might indeed be time to close the thread...
              We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin

              I suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
              Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

              Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

              We don't need a body to feel a body. Ronald Melzack

              Comment


              • #82
                I agree that there have been no personal attacks nor has anyone denied the results (in whatever form that term encompasses) from using the concepts they've learned. It's just that stating that it was zhealth or r phase that is important in achieving the results does no work toward understanding what's going on.

                For more attempts at developing a common language, here's the wiki entry on proprioception. Of course this is not the authority but it is at least a reference anyone can look at and agree or disagree.
                "I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris

                Comment


                • #83
                  Use of the word 'health' is relative.
                  Our newspapers are full of advertisements promoting 'health' for people who aren't particularly unhealthy, but possibly bored. Supply and demand thing.
                  If a group gets together to get people moving more comfortably, then that is not a bad thing, of course. But if they charge thousands of dollars for learning a set of drills without any concept of the physiological reasoning behind the routines, that is a bad thing. Like paintings, the policy seems to be that the more you pay the better it must be, which, in the consumer world, is largely a rip-off.

                  Geoff, the attacks are for systems and courses without bases. Not towards the people who find them useful; they are entitled to do what is best for their needs or desires. Good luck and good health to them.

                  Nari

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    It seems that I've opened up a giant can of rotten worms here. This wasn't the intention of my original post. If the Soma Simple moderators wish to discontinue this thread it might be a good idea since this doesn't seem to benfefitting anyone. Now if Dr. Cobb could join in it might add to the discussion but it doesn't sound like he'd stand a flying chance on this forum. Are there any Chiro's even on this forum?

                    I may have been mistaken posting this thread here...I took a chance however hoping it would help me deepen my understanding of this blessing and a curse we call the human body. Being a licensed massage therapist (and a fitness professional) that deals with a lot of bodies in pain I was intrigued by Barrett Dorko's writings in years past on the old Supertraining list. I followed him to this site and was very impressed with the knowledge level of this on-line community. Since I was never satisfied with explantions and theories from the Z-Health community I thought I'd ask here to see if there were some major gaps in my understanding of the body (as it relates to pain, function, etc.) or if Z-health could practically cure cancer.

                    I somtimes wonder if online discussions are sometimes more stilting than enhancing since they miss out of many other aspects of human communication (voice, tone and pitch, emotion, facial expression, etc..). Moshe Feldenkrais believed that words can be terribly inadequate for communication, however for most circumstances they are the best we can do.

                    What may have been more effective at the start of this thread is if I posted a video or an explanation of some particular Z-drill, and then posed my questions and objections to the drill such as: What sort of benefits/detriments could come from such a movement? How could this possibly help/worsen symptom X or Y? That way, we could have separated the movement from the system and really tried to distill it down to the most fundamental processes at work.

                    If this is the end of thread, thanks to those who contributed their thoughts and opinions.
                    Keats Snideman CSCS, LMT
                    "Keep an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out."

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Hi Keats,

                      Now if Dr. Cobb could join in it might add to the discussion but it doesn't sound like he'd stand a flying chance on this forum.
                      Why do you say this? What sort of forum would he stand a flying chance on?
                      "I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        What may have been more effective at the start of this thread is if I posted a video or an explanation of some particular Z-drill, and then posed my questions and objections to the drill such as: What sort of benefits/detriments could come from such a movement? How could this possibly help/worsen symptom X or Y? That way, we could have separated the movement from the system and really tried to distill it down to the most fundamental processes at work.
                        I doubt that would have helped.

                        Don't worry about the worms Keats, they'll go back into the can eventually.
                        Diane
                        www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                        SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                        HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                        Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                        Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                        Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                        @PainPhysiosCan
                        WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                        @WCPTPTPN
                        Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                        @dfjpt
                        SomaSimple on Facebook
                        @somasimple

                        "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                        “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                        “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                        "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                        "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Symptoms of pain are reduced when the origins are reduced and/or when the tolerance of the person suffering is sufficiently increased. It's not a mystery. When movement helps, it's probable that the mechanical deformation responsible for the pain's origin has been addressed correctively. Again, no mystery.

                          When do you suppose that those who push an incredible variety of movement therapies out there are going to figure this out? What's there to wonder about?

                          I'm with Jon. Why wouldn't Dr. Cobb have "a flying chance" here? Are we supposed to give him some sort of special dispensation? Isn't he supposed to have a theory he can defend just like everyone else?

                          Keats, you made no mistake asking about this method here, but you were mistaken if you assumed that we might come up with an explanation for the supposed effect of this work or that we would automatically imagine that Dr. Cobb's claims are reasonable or true. Perhaps you didn't expect this, I don't know.

                          The guy who invented the method and who makes his living teaching it is supposed to do this. The fact that his students (read those who pay him) don't demand this is why the whole thing seems such a confused mess.

                          These tasks are Dr. Cobb's responsibility.
                          Barrett L. Dorko

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Frankly, I am appalled and saddened by the overt hostility, cynicism, and sarcasm displayed by my colleagues on this thread. How about we all check our egos at the door and get back to the basics. The main question seems to be what the heck is Z health, and what is it based on. Dr. Cobb is able to articulate this much better than I am, but I will do my best.. . .

                            Z-health is a comprehensive system based on applied neurophysiology. Because neurophys is such a broad and complex topic, it is way too much to completely cover here. There are multiple tools in the Z toolbox, but the most easily recognized is the joint mobility. Z seeks to restore optimal movement patterns by stimulating the nervous system using whichever tool is appropriate (joint mobility, visual/vestibular exercise, strength, manual therapy, etc), and the certifications teach you which tool to use when. The concepts behind Z are based in basic science that we all know and understand. The first is proprioception - the entire body is mapped into the nervous system. Anything you experience in the human body helps to shape this map. The idea behind the joint mobility exercise is that the precise retraining of volitional joint control stimulates mechanoreceptors in the joints to help reshape the proprioceptive map. (So far, so obvious) The arthrokinetic reflex is a major player, as the lack of joint mobility affects neural input to and from the musculature surrounding the immobile joint, thus affecting motor programming. Precise volitional control of joint motion improves proprioception, and the ability of the nervous system to achieve more efficient motor programming by preventing the arthrokinetic reflex. We could then begin to talk about formation of synaptic connections, dendritic pruning, so on and so forth, but I prefer to stick to simple stuff. We are just now beginning to understand how much visual and vestibular input can affect movement. (Remember the vestibulocollic, cervico-ocular, and cervicocollic reflexes?) The Z-health system also provides tools to assess and integrate the visual, vestibular, and proprioceptive systems into training or rehabilitation in a systematic and simple way. Other basic principles and reflexes also come into play such as the SAID principle and the startle reflex. These are important because anything the body perceives as a noxious stimulus can elicit the startle reflex which then shuts down movement and efficiency. This can also lead into a sympathetic hormone cascade - but that is a whole other topic. You also get exactly what you train for because of the SAID principle, and if you train imprecisely or inefficiently - you get imprecise and inefficient movement. The difference between Z and other joint mobility programs is in the precision of the movements and the skillful integration of these precise movements.

                            Because Z is a relatively new system, there are no scientific studies in peer-reviewed journals yet . . . But the principles it is based on are well-studied and well known. In the end, the proof is in the pudding.

                            It is apparent that you prefer journal articles to anecdotal evidence, but I have to give you 2 personal examples of the power of the nervous system brought to light by Z. 1. I've had hammer toes my whole life. My sister has them and my mom has them. No amount of exercise, manual joint mobilization or stretching has made a dent in my hammer toes in 30 years. Last month I had been doing a lot of joint mobility and noticed that the toes on my left had begun to straighten - weird. Then, one day, I combined some of the visual work with joint mobility, and lo and behold, the toes on my right foot had straightened out - in a total of 30 seconds! It doesn't make sense to the evidence-based practice trained therapist that I am - but it happened. Why? The nervous system rules.
                            2. I weigh about 138 pounds. I haven't lifted anything heavy since 1998 when I hit a PR in the deadlift of 225lbs - I was a scholarship volleyball player and trained every day. Since then I have de-trained and have been working to rehab all the injuries I accumulated over the years. Last year I also dislocated my SC joint (dog walking injury) and haven't been able to do any heavy pushing or pulling since due to the instability. The heaviest thing I've routinely lifted over the last year was 12 kg. Last week, after a week of doing high quality mobility work combined with visual and vestibular work, I walked up to a bar and deadlifted it without warming up at all. It weighed 225 lbs!

                            The point here is this: the nervous system is extremely powerful and fast. There is more that we don't know about it than we do. If a system is out there that has the ability to help us integrate multiple tools in the real world to make a change for the better - that is a great thing - even if we don't completely understand it. I hope that you will practice what you preach - keep an open mind and continue to investigate.

                            Best Regards,
                            Courtney Neupert, PT, DPT

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Thank you for your input Courtney. Everyone here agrees on the nervous system being powerful and fast. In fact that's kinda what this board is about. Most of us have had experiences that support that contention. What's to say that this z approach is not just neural glide exercises either inadvertently 'rediscovered' or deliberately repackaged and called joint control exercises? In fact, I'd bet the farm that neural glide explanations can more than account for the apparent magical speedy results. It usually takes three days of practicing those, with solid pain education, to recover, not ten..

                              Frankly, I am appalled and saddened by the overt hostility, cynicism, and sarcasm displayed by my colleagues on this thread. How about we all check our egos at the door and get back to the basics.
                              ??? I beg to differ. This forum isn't used to a bunch of heavy marketing-type posting, is all. In fact we're sort of allergic to it. We tend to be a bit nerdy here actually.

                              The main question seems to be what the heck is Z health, and what is it based on. Dr. Cobb is able to articulate this much better than I am, but I will do my best.. . .
                              I don't know that that was really the question. It seems to be related to what the "answer" that everyone trained by Cobb is providing, however.
                              Diane
                              www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                              SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                              HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                              Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                              Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                              Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                              @PainPhysiosCan
                              WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                              @WCPTPTPN
                              Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                              @dfjpt
                              SomaSimple on Facebook
                              @somasimple

                              "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                              “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                              “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                              "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                              "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                I don't know about the rest of you, but I really appreciate this post.
                                Barrett L. Dorko

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