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Deconstruction of "Z-Health Performance Solutions"

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  • #16
    Keats,

    The problem comes with your posts.
    We have no chance to know if it is your words or some coming from the cited site.
    You must use quotes avoidind such a confusion.

    read this =>
    How Do I Quote a phrase?
    http://www.somasimple.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=79

    Infraction was reversed and your posts... quoted.
    Last edited by bernard; 03-08-2007, 09:05 AM.
    Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
    We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

    Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
    If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
    bernard

    Comment


    • #17
      Keats,

      Excuse us if we are skeptical. It is not uncommon for people to come on sites such as this one pretending to be a skeptic or asking to debunk something that they are actually promoting. I am not saying you are doing this, but you haven't posted many posts before this or established your credibility here, don't take offense if people question your motivations.

      Generally when you read marketing such as this, reminiscent of Charles Atlas bodybuilding course material, you can discount most of the material. I used to go to the Z-health site a long time ago, I found some of it interesting, but none of it was anything special and if they have secrets into these things they have a moral obligation to have them peer reviewed and placed into the body of research for others. I am quite confident they haven't and won't, because there is nothing more than mirrors and smoke involved. I suggest you have your friends watch Derren Brown and see how easily the mind is manipulated and tricked.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Luke Rickards View Post
        Keats,
        Please continue.
        Thank you Luke. First off, Dr. Cobb is huge on the nervous system as you may have read on the homepage of his site. However, most of his actual exercises are "joint specific." He breaks his system down into phases:

        The first phase is called the R-Phase, for Recovery of lost range of motion. In this phase you basically isolate every movable joint in the body and try to "re-educate" the nervous system how to use the new range of motion. He's big on circular motion and figure 8's with the joints. This is not so hard to grasp I suppose.

        It gets a little more dicey when he puts forth the idea that there are corresponing joints in the body. For instance, Cobb states that a right ankle problem is correlated with a left wrist problem. A right knee problem is related to dysfunction in the left elbow; right hip with left shoulder, etc... I guess he bases this theory on the human gait cycle. It kind of makes sense but sounds a little too simplistic. And what of the nervous system? He talks about it a ton but never actually teaches his "students" any neural anatomy or histology.

        When I had a terrible case of calcific tendonitis in my left infraspinatus 2 years ago, Dr. Cobb (whom I ran into at fitness convention) spent most of his time messing around with my right ankle. Did it help? Nope. What did help eventually was a cortisone shot right into the affected area (ouch!).

        So this concept of corresponding joints... let's start with this to start the discussion. Is this nonesense or does anyone have evidence-based information to back any of this up? Thanks in advance.

        More tomorrow...I'm off to bed.
        Keats Snideman CSCS, LMT
        "Keep an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out."

        Comment


        • #19
          When I had a terrible case of calcific tendonitis in my left infraspinatus 2 years ago, Dr. Cobb (whom I ran into at fitness convention) spent most of his time messing around with my right ankle.
          I wonder why not your right hip, which would fit more with his correspondence patterns.

          Is this nonsense
          Keats, what do you think?
          Luke Rickards
          Osteopath

          Comment


          • #20
            Hi Keats,

            What attracted you to take the first course? Was the first one credible enough that you took more?
            "I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris

            Comment


            • #21
              Keats,

              1. Please accept my apologies. It appears I had the wrong take on you. Welcome back.

              2. I have an astronomically high index of suspicion about any treatment system designed by a chiropractor. They seem to pull most of their ideas out of clouds or something. They would love to insist the body/nervous system works as they say it does instead of the way it really does, i.e., arbitrarily and according to its own individual trajectory most of the time. They'll take one tiny treatment idea (usually not original) then squeeze it to mush, expand it up into a multi-level system which they try to become rich from. All packageing/no content.

              3. Every chiro with a system is only trying to sell it.

              4. Chiro systems all contradict each other.

              3. I confess, I saw that Cobbs is a chiro and thought, I'm not going to get sucked anywhere near this thread or near Keats.
              Diane
              www.dermoneuromodulation.com
              SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
              HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
              Neurotonics PT Teamblog
              Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
              Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
              @PainPhysiosCan
              WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
              @WCPTPTPN
              Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

              @dfjpt
              SomaSimple on Facebook
              @somasimple

              "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

              “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

              “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

              "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

              "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Jon Newman View Post
                Hi Keats,

                What attracted you to take the first course? Was the first one credible enough that you took more?

                I was exposed to it from a colleague who had all kinds of anecdotal evidence about how great it was and how it fixed this and that. I must admit, initially, I did get some improved function in my ankles and in my neck. But the results were short-lived and never improved from there.

                Dr. Cobb does seem to have a knack for quickly improving strength and range of motion but I have to wonder if there isn't some some sort "placebo-like" effect at work here. And no one seems to be able to reproduce his quick results which makes you totally dependent on him and is high hourly rate if you want to do his system correctly. Interestingly, Dr. Cobb doesn't even practice chiropractic anymore; he feels his movement system is far superior (Why call yourself a DC then??). I'm personally very leary of most Chiro's; they always seem to have some sort of agenda. Not that joint manipualtions don't have their place, but the whole "subluxation" theory...not buying it!

                After a couple of introductory seminars I stopped taking the courses and began to get a little skeptical about the entire thing; especially when they kept raising their prices. Some of my colleagues (including some Physical Therapists) have continued with the outrageously-priced certifications and seem to think it can cure cancer or something. These are bright people for the most part but have really become converts to this new rehab religion of sorts.
                Keats Snideman CSCS, LMT
                "Keep an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out."

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Diane View Post
                  Keats,

                  1. Please accept my apologies. It appears I had the wrong take on you. Welcome back.

                  2. I have an astronomically high index of suspicion about any treatment system designed by a chiropractor. They seem to pull most of their ideas out of clouds or something. They would love to insist the body/nervous system works as they say it does instead of the way it really does, i.e., arbitrarily and according to its own individual trajectory most of the time. They'll take one tiny treatment idea (usually not original) then squeeze it to mush, expand it up into a multi-level system which they try to become rich from. All packageing/no content.

                  3. Every chiro with a system is only trying to sell it.

                  4. Chiro systems all contradict each other.

                  3. I confess, I saw that Cobbs is a chiro and thought, I'm not going to get sucked anywhere near this thread or near Keats.
                  Diane, I now understand the reasons for your initial respone; it makes sense. I too would stay away from someone who I thought has some hidden agenda or decpetive marketing ploy (especially DC's).

                  For those who ever frquented Supertraining in the past, I was mearly trying to get an evidenced-based view of what this system is actually doing (and to dispel the hype), much like Dr. Mel Siff used to do when he was still with us.
                  Keats Snideman CSCS, LMT
                  "Keep an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out."

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Hi Keats,

                    My favorite statement that you quoted (from post number 1) is

                    I can help my clients in ways (almost instantaneously) that no chiro, PT, or Orthopod can.
                    And who did he learn this from? Isn't it a self refuting statement?

                    I see you're a CSCS and since you've actually taken some courses, you're in the best position to let us know if there is anything on offer that can't be explained by known principles of overload, specificity, motivation, etc.
                    Last edited by Jon Newman; 03-08-2007, 06:43 PM.
                    "I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      have really become converts to this new rehab religion of sorts
                      Exactly. Evey chirodigm is a cult, even the chirodigms that say they aren't chirodigms - it's usually another belief system based on next to nothing. Every chiro claims to have discovered the secret of the universe, and will be glad to share it for an exhorbitant amount of $, hooking in the converts deeper with every "level" of the training, much like scientology etc.
                      Not worth the powder to shoot a rat.
                      Diane
                      www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                      SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                      HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                      Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                      Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                      Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                      @PainPhysiosCan
                      WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                      @WCPTPTPN
                      Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                      @dfjpt
                      SomaSimple on Facebook
                      @somasimple

                      "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                      “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                      “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                      "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                      "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Just visited the website. Doesn't look like anything new and improved but he doesn't get into it much.

                        My favourite line though

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          As I was saying my favourite line:

                          "OK I'm ready! What products do I need to buy?"

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            he puts forth the idea that there are corresponing joints in the body
                            This seems to have been taken from reflex therapy - definitely not original! How evidence-based it is I'm not sure - I don't have extensive knowledge of relex therapy

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Hi there everyone! I am new here and just got back from Dr. Dorko's lecture here in MN--excellent stuff. I have read some information on this site, but just signed up to post. Dr. Dorko and I were discussing Z Health and he encouraged me to post here since I've completed Level 1 and Level 2 Z Health training.

                              Nice to see ya here Keats! Sorry I missed you in AZ recently. I really do appreciate you looking out for myself and other trainers--I really do. h

                              I can vouch for Keats and he does not practice Z and is not looking to plug it on the site. He is an exceptionally smart guy and has great insights.

                              I am more than happy to answer any Z Health questions that you have. I did the level 1 about a year ago and work as a trainer in MN.

                              i appreciate the level of skepticism that you have about a chiro promoting a system, since you have great reasons! I am not Dr. Cobb and can't speak for him, but my understanding is that one of the reasons he stopped doing chiro is that he was not happy with the results; and thus went on to develop his own system.

                              Is the Z Health system entirely original? No, of course not and he does not claim that he came up with it by himself in a vacuum and fully admits that he stood on the shoulder of giants to get where he is today.

                              From the outside, it only appears to be some joint mobility drills and nothing more. That could not be further from the truth. They are a key component of the system, but the system is designed based on the nervous system and you have to respect the nervous system since it is the governing system in the body (I know that is nothing new to the people here).

                              I know where the other posts came from above also and can back up the integrity of the person saying them. I have been able to help people by using the Z Health system many times (currently I have done about 50 formal sessions). I have even tested it on people that knew nothing about the system or what was even supposed to happen. I am interested in getting a result that is not based off a placebo effect because that is the true test of a system.

                              Just a recent example was yestereday! After yoga, one of the instructors was complaining of hamstring pain when she did a lunge position and reached towards the floor. I did 2 Z Health drills (one for the ankle and one for the opposite elbow), had her walk a little bit and her motion in that same position was virtually pain free. Now she will have to do those drills for about 2-4 weeks until her brain learns that motion; but I was able to offer her a solution that she could do herself in very little time.

                              I don't know of any literature that is published on the Z Health system as a whole, but the principals of the system are grounded in neurophysiology.

                              Let me know what questions I can answer for you.

                              Thanks in advance for your time and I look forward to you trying to break my belief system.

                              Mike N

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Mike,

                                Nice to see you take advantage of this so rapidly.

                                I have the sense that there are some holes in the theory here. This may be because I have yet to carefully look at what Cobb's theory actually is. I know you and Keats will help with that.

                                One more thing. I'm just Barrett, and not a "Dr." of any sort.
                                Barrett L. Dorko

                                Comment

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