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Deconstruction of "Z-Health Performance Solutions"

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  • Jon Newman
    replied
    Hi Keats,

    My favorite statement that you quoted (from post number 1) is

    I can help my clients in ways (almost instantaneously) that no chiro, PT, or Orthopod can.
    And who did he learn this from? Isn't it a self refuting statement?

    I see you're a CSCS and since you've actually taken some courses, you're in the best position to let us know if there is anything on offer that can't be explained by known principles of overload, specificity, motivation, etc.
    Last edited by Jon Newman; 03-08-2007, 06:43 PM.

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  • Keats Snideman
    replied
    Originally posted by Diane View Post
    Keats,

    1. Please accept my apologies. It appears I had the wrong take on you. Welcome back.

    2. I have an astronomically high index of suspicion about any treatment system designed by a chiropractor. They seem to pull most of their ideas out of clouds or something. They would love to insist the body/nervous system works as they say it does instead of the way it really does, i.e., arbitrarily and according to its own individual trajectory most of the time. They'll take one tiny treatment idea (usually not original) then squeeze it to mush, expand it up into a multi-level system which they try to become rich from. All packageing/no content.

    3. Every chiro with a system is only trying to sell it.

    4. Chiro systems all contradict each other.

    3. I confess, I saw that Cobbs is a chiro and thought, I'm not going to get sucked anywhere near this thread or near Keats.
    Diane, I now understand the reasons for your initial respone; it makes sense. I too would stay away from someone who I thought has some hidden agenda or decpetive marketing ploy (especially DC's).

    For those who ever frquented Supertraining in the past, I was mearly trying to get an evidenced-based view of what this system is actually doing (and to dispel the hype), much like Dr. Mel Siff used to do when he was still with us.

    Leave a comment:


  • Keats Snideman
    replied
    Originally posted by Jon Newman View Post
    Hi Keats,

    What attracted you to take the first course? Was the first one credible enough that you took more?

    I was exposed to it from a colleague who had all kinds of anecdotal evidence about how great it was and how it fixed this and that. I must admit, initially, I did get some improved function in my ankles and in my neck. But the results were short-lived and never improved from there.

    Dr. Cobb does seem to have a knack for quickly improving strength and range of motion but I have to wonder if there isn't some some sort "placebo-like" effect at work here. And no one seems to be able to reproduce his quick results which makes you totally dependent on him and is high hourly rate if you want to do his system correctly. Interestingly, Dr. Cobb doesn't even practice chiropractic anymore; he feels his movement system is far superior (Why call yourself a DC then??). I'm personally very leary of most Chiro's; they always seem to have some sort of agenda. Not that joint manipualtions don't have their place, but the whole "subluxation" theory...not buying it!

    After a couple of introductory seminars I stopped taking the courses and began to get a little skeptical about the entire thing; especially when they kept raising their prices. Some of my colleagues (including some Physical Therapists) have continued with the outrageously-priced certifications and seem to think it can cure cancer or something. These are bright people for the most part but have really become converts to this new rehab religion of sorts.

    Leave a comment:


  • Diane
    replied
    Keats,

    1. Please accept my apologies. It appears I had the wrong take on you. Welcome back.

    2. I have an astronomically high index of suspicion about any treatment system designed by a chiropractor. They seem to pull most of their ideas out of clouds or something. They would love to insist the body/nervous system works as they say it does instead of the way it really does, i.e., arbitrarily and according to its own individual trajectory most of the time. They'll take one tiny treatment idea (usually not original) then squeeze it to mush, expand it up into a multi-level system which they try to become rich from. All packageing/no content.

    3. Every chiro with a system is only trying to sell it.

    4. Chiro systems all contradict each other.

    3. I confess, I saw that Cobbs is a chiro and thought, I'm not going to get sucked anywhere near this thread or near Keats.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jon Newman
    replied
    Hi Keats,

    What attracted you to take the first course? Was the first one credible enough that you took more?

    Leave a comment:


  • Luke Rickards
    replied
    When I had a terrible case of calcific tendonitis in my left infraspinatus 2 years ago, Dr. Cobb (whom I ran into at fitness convention) spent most of his time messing around with my right ankle.
    I wonder why not your right hip, which would fit more with his correspondence patterns.

    Is this nonsense
    Keats, what do you think?

    Leave a comment:


  • Keats Snideman
    replied
    Originally posted by Luke Rickards View Post
    Keats,
    Please continue.
    Thank you Luke. First off, Dr. Cobb is huge on the nervous system as you may have read on the homepage of his site. However, most of his actual exercises are "joint specific." He breaks his system down into phases:

    The first phase is called the R-Phase, for Recovery of lost range of motion. In this phase you basically isolate every movable joint in the body and try to "re-educate" the nervous system how to use the new range of motion. He's big on circular motion and figure 8's with the joints. This is not so hard to grasp I suppose.

    It gets a little more dicey when he puts forth the idea that there are corresponing joints in the body. For instance, Cobb states that a right ankle problem is correlated with a left wrist problem. A right knee problem is related to dysfunction in the left elbow; right hip with left shoulder, etc... I guess he bases this theory on the human gait cycle. It kind of makes sense but sounds a little too simplistic. And what of the nervous system? He talks about it a ton but never actually teaches his "students" any neural anatomy or histology.

    When I had a terrible case of calcific tendonitis in my left infraspinatus 2 years ago, Dr. Cobb (whom I ran into at fitness convention) spent most of his time messing around with my right ankle. Did it help? Nope. What did help eventually was a cortisone shot right into the affected area (ouch!).

    So this concept of corresponding joints... let's start with this to start the discussion. Is this nonesense or does anyone have evidence-based information to back any of this up? Thanks in advance.

    More tomorrow...I'm off to bed.

    Leave a comment:


  • Randy Dixon
    replied
    Keats,

    Excuse us if we are skeptical. It is not uncommon for people to come on sites such as this one pretending to be a skeptic or asking to debunk something that they are actually promoting. I am not saying you are doing this, but you haven't posted many posts before this or established your credibility here, don't take offense if people question your motivations.

    Generally when you read marketing such as this, reminiscent of Charles Atlas bodybuilding course material, you can discount most of the material. I used to go to the Z-health site a long time ago, I found some of it interesting, but none of it was anything special and if they have secrets into these things they have a moral obligation to have them peer reviewed and placed into the body of research for others. I am quite confident they haven't and won't, because there is nothing more than mirrors and smoke involved. I suggest you have your friends watch Derren Brown and see how easily the mind is manipulated and tricked.

    Leave a comment:


  • bernard
    replied
    Keats,

    The problem comes with your posts.
    We have no chance to know if it is your words or some coming from the cited site.
    You must use quotes avoidind such a confusion.

    read this =>
    How Do I Quote a phrase?
    http://www.somasimple.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=79

    Infraction was reversed and your posts... quoted.
    Last edited by bernard; 03-08-2007, 09:05 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Luke Rickards
    replied
    Keats,
    Please continue.

    Leave a comment:


  • Keats Snideman
    replied
    Originally posted by Diane View Post
    Luke, he could have put it in a quote box or in quote marks so we would be certain.

    Also, I think he could have just put up a link rather than bringing us three posts full of the sales pitch stuff straight off the website to have to look at here. Not the best move. Maybe the chiro is paying him to seed discussion forums. Why would I not be surprised if that were the case?
    What's the deal with you guys? I AM NOT PROMOTING THIS SYSTEM!

    The post in question was directly from the Z-Health website, it was not my writing. This is totally unfair; I'm only trying to get info/help on how to poke holes in the system. Some of you are totally misreading me here.

    Now if I'm not kicked off this site for unwarranted reasons, I would like to discuss some of the PROBLEMS I have with the system...

    May I continue???

    Leave a comment:


  • Diane
    replied
    Luke, he could have put it in a quote box or in quote marks so we would be certain.

    Also, I think he could have just put up a link rather than bringing us three posts full of the sales pitch stuff straight off the website to have to look at here. Not the best move. Maybe the chiro is paying him to seed discussion forums. Why would I not be surprised if that were the case?

    Leave a comment:


  • bernard
    replied
    OK, I'll wait some more!

    Leave a comment:


  • Luke Rickards
    replied
    Bernard,
    That last quote is actually part of the cut and paste directly from the Zhealth home page. It was not a comment from Keats.

    Leave a comment:


  • bernard
    replied
    Diane, sorry if my post offended you. I am in now way promoting this system.
    It may sound like magic but I assure you it’s NOT… It’s just good science applied to body movement.
    Well, such kind of debunk is far from reality.
    You're out.

    Leave a comment:

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