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  • Barrett Dorko
    replied
    I'm with Diane. The "valuable discussion" may commence at any time. So far, I think the regulars here are doing exactly what I told Mike they would do; They're being "his friends."

    This comes from a line in Achenbach's "Captured by Aliens" - In science if you don't work hard enough to prove yourself wrong, your friends will gleefully take up the slack.

    As yet, I'm not really seeing much of a theory to be, uh, "friendly" with. Do you think Dr. Cobb himself might answer an invitation? Might he appreciate some new friends?
    Last edited by Barrett Dorko; 05-08-2007, 12:52 AM.

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  • nari
    replied
    Anoop,

    I was starting to think the same thing. A PhD student is interested in results but the 'why is it so' must come first, and foremost.

    Results do not mean anything unless there is a hypothesis which must be shown to stand up to scrutiny.
    I haven't found any sort of hypothesis in what Mike has written.

    Can one question at least be answered:

    What is the evidence for neuromyofascial (?) unwinding and winding???

    Without strong references, it sounds like making a pastry for croissants.

    Nari

    Leave a comment:


  • Diane
    replied
    I think this thread will yield some valuable discussion.
    I hope it starts soon.

    Leave a comment:


  • Keats Snideman
    replied
    Originally posted by Diane View Post
    Why would anyone want to engage a system that could do this? Surely there has to be more reason behind a "system" that supposedly treats pain and dysfunction or lack of optimum function than just a personal success story (Mike's). Please bring some links to some science support. Please. Otherwise there might have to be revisit of some serious moderating of this so-far apparently anti-scientific thread. It still smells like spam to this nose.
    Diane, this thread is definately not spam. Mike is a very credible individual who happens to be experiencing great success with the Z-Health System. While Mike is my friend and colleague, I obviously don't share the same enthusiasm for the system that he does.

    That was the original reason for my posting on this forum. I was not satisfied with the explanations/theories that Dr. Cobb was giving for his results. Since so many Soma Simple members sound like they're quite versed in current science-based research on the nervous system, it seemed like a good place to bounce some ideas around.

    I think this thread will yield some valuable discussion.

    Leave a comment:


  • anoopbal
    replied
    wow.. it amazes me a Ph.d guy can write like what he just wrote.

    Generally, Ph.D guys are just critical to the core and ask for refernces even for simple little statements. That's show they are trained to think. It is just unbelivably hard to get a conclusive statement from a good researcher.

    Anoop

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  • Diane
    replied
    some Z drills even done correctly can make the body WORSE
    Why would anyone want to engage a system that could do this? Surely there has to be more reason behind a "system" that supposedly treats pain and dysfunction or lack of optimum function than just a personal success story (Mike's). Please bring some links to some science support. Please. Otherwise there might have to be revisit of some serious moderating of this so-far apparently anti-scientific thread. It still smells like spam to this nose.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bas Asselbergs
    replied
    Mike, thanks, but your answer is not really what I am looking for. I will start with this:
    "neuromyofascial winding" What is this? I have read a few things in my years as PT and I have never seen this mentioned anywhere....

    "left foot turns out at the hip, forward head posture"
    How do you know that these are NOT "normal" for the person you look at? How do you know that the outturn of the hip is not associated with an angle variation of the acetabulum? Or that the head forward is simply how the person HAS to be?

    And then, in the last paragraph, it seems as if there is some trend like: throw this at the person, if it doesn't work, throw something alse at them until it does.
    This does not bode well for the accuracy and reliability of the tests....

    Mike, I do not think I will actually get these and my first questions properly answered. I don't say you are to blame for that, but rather the lack of solid scientific underpinning for the "theory' upon which this approach is built.

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  • Jon Newman
    replied
    Hi Mike,

    I'm trying to find something of value to salvage from all the bunk.

    Can you help us understand what neuromyofascial winding means? I entered it as a keyword in Google and got zippo.

    My understanding (limited as it is) of the Fukada step test has nothing to do with neuromyofascial anything. Do you suppose this is an appropriate use of the test? If so, how do you know this?

    Leave a comment:


  • Jason Silvernail
    replied
    Hello Mike.
    You're not really answering any of these questions, simply regurgitating statements with no evidentiary support such as:
    The theory is that the body works in the following hierachy (as mentioned before) 1) visual (eye muscle movements) 2) vestibular 3) proprioception
    and
    Next the Postural Reactions to Eye Position is checked. If clear (no issue), vestibular is checked (Postural Neck Reflex Test). If that is clear THEN neuromyofascial winding is checked.
    These are almost nonsense statements in that they don't really convey any real understanding of the human body. Everything posted about this "system" sounds like Star Trek - throw a couple of big words out there it sounds convincing.
    I can do this, too, see:
    First we check eyes to examine the upper rectus for trigger spasms, if that's clear then we move toward the cingulate gyrus to look at ganglion transmission speed. We really only go as far as neurochemical plexus inhibition if it's needed, it usually isn't.

    What's next, [insert scottish accent] "Captain, we can't get anymore power, the dilithium crystal's overheating!"
    Please.

    Do you even know what you're talking about here? You mentioned "checking vestibular"- how can the system be "checked" by the use of the postural neck reflex? What problems does this test supposedly reveal and how can they be addressed through "exercises"?
    This is just one example.

    Additionally, do your credentials in training or exercise qualify you to legally diagnose or treat any medical condition?

    Well?

    Leave a comment:


  • Mike T Nelson
    replied
    Originally posted by Keats Snideman View Post
    Mike, I'm so glad you are here to add to this discussion since you have much more actual information on the system than I do.

    They (this community) were about to bite my head off at first since they thought I was some troll sent my Dr. Cobb to market the sytem. :mg:

    Regarding holes in the system:

    1) it seems difficult to achieve the results Dr. Cobb does consistently unless you have him around.

    2) The system is based on the Nervous System supposedly but no real exploration into neural anatomy and testing (i.e. Neurodynamics) seems to be taught. I mention this because I've tried some of the isolated (R-Phase) joint movements with people (in the neck for example) and only made them worse. In hindsite, I believe these people had too much "neural tension" in their brachial plexus and the isolated movements only added more tension (strain) to the already tensed nerves. I've had more success with mobilizing movements now by adding in Neurodynamic testing to see how sensitive the nervous sytem is to begin with. Using slider/tensioner techniques as advocated by David Butler and others has worked much better than some of the ultra-strict Z-health drills. The slider techniques in particular add more "slack" to strained nervous tissue; something that does not seem to happen with any of the isolated Z-health drills. Putting some slack in the system reminds me of some of Feldenkrais' work (who Dr. Cobb quotes I believe) that I've done in the past. I've had more success with high-tension nervous systems (including my own) using a Feldenkrais approach rather than the Z-Health approach; of course this is my own anecdotal evidence.

    I could go on with the last point on nervous system stuff but that's a good start to get this discussion rolling. Great to have you here Mike!
    Thanks Keats! The quick answer is that you must be sure when you are doing a Z Health drill that you are NOT adding tension to the body, as you have pointed out, it will not be effective. It also has to be done with high precision. In my experience, working directly on the neck/cervical area on a first visit is tricky since you will normally see tension levels go UP (not what we are after).

    However, as you know the body is a big X with regard to force transfer, so working on the feet, hips and wrists will (in most people) affect neck tension. I just worked on an athlete today that got pain in neck extension of a 4 (1-10 scale). I worked on his feet/ankles, index finger (old injury), and left hip. His gait was much better and he could move his head into the same position with no pain. Shoulder ROM increased about 45 degrees in both arms also.

    Also, as I mentioned above, some Z drills even done correctly can make the body WORSE. This is rare, but that is the point of having a gait assessment and then a re-assessment. Everyone is different and without a re-assessment you are just guessing at what that person needs at that time. The body/nervous sys is not that simple that when I do X I ALWAYS get Y (and you know that).

    Dr. Cobb is amazing, but I don't feel you need to be him to get results. I was getting about an 80% response from clients I saw only using R Phase. I Phase should add about another 10-15% to that number (time will tell). Is Dr. Cobb getting better results? I am sure that he is, but I will get better also as I get more experience and learn more also.

    Take care
    Mike N

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  • Mike T Nelson
    replied
    Originally posted by Bas View Post

    Second: How do you know this "(...)if these imbalances/weaknesses exist, they affect how the body moves and what happens on the myofascial level." ? How is the effect on the "myofascia" measured? How is the body movement evaluated? And since people are so inconsiderate to be fiercely independent in their (own habitual) movement patterns, how do you establish "normal" in order to assess "abnormal"?


    Third: And how do you know this?: "This means your eyes can set you up for structural imbalances and injuries without you even knowing it." How has this been measured?

    I assume that the above quotes (thanks Keats) are representative of the whole Z-Health concept.
    I am cramped for time, so I will answer the second question first and the other one (which is a good question) soon.

    The theory is that the body works in the following hierachy (as mentioned before) 1) visual (eye muscle movements) 2) vestibular 3) proprioception

    The general test done first is to have the athelete stand and watch how much they sway--Romberg's test (normally it is very small). Next have them close their eyes (cut visual info). Normally they are fine.

    If they pass, the next test is a Sharpened Romberg's test (where the eyes are closed).

    Next the Postural Reactions to Eye Position is checked. If clear (no issue), vestibular is checked (Postural Neck Reflex Test). If that is clear THEN neuromyofascial winding is checked. If there is a visual or vetibular test that is positive, there is no point to checking for winding since the body would just wind itself off the visual or vestibular input. Neuromyofascial winding is checked by a Fukuda Stepping Test (with head in neutral, rt and left positions).

    Normal and abnormal is measured by a gait analysis. We are not looking for small things, just something a 5 year old could spot (left foot turns out at the hip, forward head posture, etc). A Z drill is done and then the gait assessment is repeated and any change is noted. Since the Z drills act on the nervous system (they are active not passive drills), if the gait is better--yahoo! If not, try another drill. If their gait is worse, that is not a good drill for them. Instead of gait you can measure ROM or do a muscle test also; but gait is the best since it is an autonomous motion (assuming you get them to do their normal gait, which isn't too hard to do, normally just having them walk faster will do it).

    Let me know if that helps. Gotta run, but I will answer more soon.
    Mike

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  • Mike T Nelson
    replied
    Originally posted by bernard View Post
    You're welcome Mike.
    Sorry if I'm a bit provocative but I found the same advices and techniques in my old books for less than 20$.

    And more, since they explain why it works...

    Moshe FELDENKRAIS; Awareness Through Movement

    Thomas HANNA; Somatics
    Thanks for the post.

    I am sure this information is out there, no question about it. From my standpoint, I am not a neuroscience person as my main background or field of study (although I am learning more and more all the time). I've taken some advanced classes on neuroscience and the physiology of pain, but my current PhD work is in Exercise Phys (Metabolic Inflexibility). Also, I am also a "results guy" Athletes (I refer to everyone as an athlete since they use their body to make a living) hire me to get them results as fast as possible in a safe manner. If I can learn something in 4 days and go home to use it on Mon to help my athletes, that is worth quite a bit to me. I am sure I would be able to figure it out in time perhaps, but that time is also lost income and doing my athletes a dis-service. I expect myself to be the best that I can possibly be and if I can learn a system to play around with and test in a few days, I will do it. I have taken many other courses and most have virtually no practical aspect to them. I agree that understanding is everything and I am working to deepen my understanding all the time, but my first goal is to get them results. Is Z Health the ONLY way to do that? Of course not, but I feel it is very effective.

    Not sure if this helps or not
    Mike N

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  • Mike T Nelson
    replied
    Originally posted by Crazy Pole View Post
    Hi Mike and welcome to Soma Simple.

    Being in White Bear Lake, I know you aren't too terribly far from 35W (I attended the U). I hope you and your family are safe.

    Thank you for sharing your personal anecdotes. You mentioned the successes that you have had as a patient/subject in the system. I am wondering what sort of symptoms you had, if any?

    Also, being a trainer, I also wonder what your caseload is like in terms of primary complaints/goals. Are they mostly pain patients, or athletes hoping to gain a competitive edge?

    Thank you for your time and I look forward to your contributions,
    Wes
    Wow, looks like I opened a can of worms! I appreciate all the comments.

    Yes, I am fine and thanks to everyone for their concern. I do drive that way to class all the time, but I am currently off from class until Sept.

    My story is probably longer than anyone cares to hear, but here is the short version
    Started lifting weights in college since at 6'3" and 155 lbs I could turn sideways and dissappear. I had no idea what I was doing, but added some strength and size over time and eventually many years later and after learning as much as I could I got up to 237 lbs at the same height (but body fat was around 18% by skin fold caliper)

    In the process, I had several injuries--completely dislocated right shoulder from broomball, pulled both hip flexors and groin at the same time (don't EVER do that), seperated left shoulder, sprained ankles, sprained wrists, aches pains, low back pain one year ago that it was incredibly painful to bend over in the AM to wash my face, etc. I also like to do mtn biking, kiteboarding, wakeboarding, snowboarding, etc so I tend to subject my body to outside high force things too for fun.

    Add to this I had open heart surgery at age 4.5 (ASD with complete thoracotomy), lazy eye (amblyopia) as a kid which created a huge head tilt for awhile, glases since 4th grade (now fixed with PRK surgey), scoliosis, torticolis, and a car accident about 5 years ago.

    A year ago I was a mess, posture was horrible, joint pain, low back pain was horrible, neck pain, took me an hour of foam roller work, dynamic drills, etc before I could even lift in the gym. At that point I did the Z Health system cert (drank the Kool Aid) and relearned my lifts in the gym and did lots of Z work. Today I feel better than I have ever felt, my deadlift is up 40 lbs (TSC competion in Sept and I will hit 405 lbs raw then, so that would be a 60 lb increase), etc.

    Yes, I know this is a case study of one with lots of other variables and none of the issues I had are really huge things; but no other system I found took into consideration everything and the impact on the nervous system. At one point I hired one of the top trainers in the US to help me out and it did not help at all (made it worse actually).

    Enough about me.

    I work as a trainer and my main goal for all my athletes is performance enhancement. I don't want to be known as a pain specialist (nothing wrong with that, it is just not my main interest) BUT all the people I see are already banged up so I need to get them out of pain first. Most are shoulder pain, neck/upper trap pain, hip pain etc. Even just some simple motions like lunges/squats cause them pain. Already I am getting referrals from other trainers that are not able to help them.

    Mike N

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  • Keats Snideman
    replied
    Originally posted by Mike T Nelson View Post
    Thanks! Glad to be here.

    Keats (and others) what holes do you believe are in the system and we will discus.

    Mike N
    Mike, I'm so glad you are here to add to this discussion since you have much more actual information on the system than I do.

    They (this community) were about to bite my head off at first since they thought I was some troll sent my Dr. Cobb to market the sytem. :mg:

    Regarding holes in the system:

    1) it seems difficult to achieve the results Dr. Cobb does consistently unless you have him around.

    2) The system is based on the Nervous System supposedly but no real exploration into neural anatomy and testing (i.e. Neurodynamics) seems to be taught. I mention this because I've tried some of the isolated (R-Phase) joint movements with people (in the neck for example) and only made them worse. In hindsite, I believe these people had too much "neural tension" in their brachial plexus and the isolated movements only added more tension (strain) to the already tensed nerves. I've had more success with mobilizing movements now by adding in Neurodynamic testing to see how sensitive the nervous sytem is to begin with. Using slider/tensioner techniques as advocated by David Butler and others has worked much better than some of the ultra-strict Z-health drills. The slider techniques in particular add more "slack" to strained nervous tissue; something that does not seem to happen with any of the isolated Z-health drills. Putting some slack in the system reminds me of some of Feldenkrais' work (who Dr. Cobb quotes I believe) that I've done in the past. I've had more success with high-tension nervous systems (including my own) using a Feldenkrais approach rather than the Z-Health approach; of course this is my own anecdotal evidence.

    I could go on with the last point on nervous system stuff but that's a good start to get this discussion rolling. Great to have you here Mike!

    Leave a comment:


  • Jason Silvernail
    replied
    As with any system of evaluation and treatment, for this to be considered a credible approach, it must have...
    - an explanation of it's evaluation and treatment that makes sense given the known facts of human physiology - often referred to as "a deep model"
    - evaluation methods that are plausible for use in the clinic, and that may be studied for inter and intra-rater reliability, validity, and relevance to the complaint
    - treatment methods that might plausibly address the underlying cause of the complaint, as revealed by evaluation methods.

    Seen in this light, is Z-Health credible in terms not just of it's marketing, but in terms of it's claims regarding the origin and resolution of the complaints it purports to treat?

    Leave a comment:

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