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Deconstruction of "Z-Health Performance Solutions"

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  • bernard
    replied
    Well,

    I tried to found out some good news for patients and PT but failed.
    The given evidences are so evident but doesn't give any clue neither a single connection with pain that I think (the crew seconds me) that this thread reaches a definite dead end.

    Perhaps it is time to say that Z is just an abbrevation of... Zero.:thumbs_do

    Leave a comment:


  • Luke Rickards
    replied
    Testosteronimonials
    Diane, that's priceless.

    Leave a comment:


  • Randy Dixon
    replied
    I think that Z-health may actually get some results for some people. As an exercise program it is better than quite a few others, but what is being asked for, and not given, is some scientific support for any of the claims made. I haven't seen any put forward and I doubt if any will be, although we might find some articles that deal with some of the issues being mentioned. What has been put forward is personal testimony of how great it is, in the interests of fairness I think we should allow equal time to other systems with similar testimonies and claims. I'll begin.

    http://www.theprrt.com/
    (I have some personal experience with this one)

    http://www.probodx.com/index.html
    http://www.totalmotionrelease.com/
    http://www.appliedkinesiology.com/
    http://www.quantumtouch.com/
    http://www.crahealth.org/testimonials/testimonials.html
    http://www.painreliefnatural.com/htm...echnique_.html
    (EFT emotional ?? Technique)
    Jason Silvernails Quantum Star Trek Fitness (Dilithium Crystals not included)
    I'd be interested in this one but it needs some more testimonials.

    The thing that all of these share are that people believe they work, and in fact they have worked, and in some cases they work pretty well and and could probably be demonstrated to be at least somewhat effective. What they all lack is any credibility or understanding of why they work.

    Leave a comment:


  • Diane
    replied
    Since no science support was forthcoming after an entire page of posts, and it went to two pages of not much but "gee, it works", I've moved this thread back to the rubbish cube where I moved it once already, and took out the live link. C'mon, I'm sure you guys can do better. Dig. Dig. Give us some juicy plausible stuff, not just descriptions and anecdotes and testosteronimonials.

    Leave a comment:


  • nari
    replied
    Hi Geoff, thanks for posting.

    Anecdotal evidence can be useful in that if it is very positive over a long period of time, it can lead to finding out the hows and the whys. That takes a lot of time and hard slog, and this has not been done by Dr Cobb on a level that is acceptable to scrutiny. If it has been done, then we were waiting for the list of references.

    Have a think about why the drills still worked for you even when you did them "incorrectly". Does that suggest to you something odd?

    I am not sure our answers to your questions would be helpful, and vice versa.

    Nari

    Leave a comment:


  • toddhargrove
    replied
    Barrett,

    Its possible that there isn’t a good connection between your concept of adaptive potential and Dr. Cobb’s concept of movement fluency. But here’s why I saw one.

    I see that you have defined adaptive potential as a persons’ ability to have pain free tolerance of repetitive movement, a forceful blow or a prolonged position.

    I interpret Dr. Cobb’s idea of movement fluency as being a similar idea. Simply that the more pain free options for movement that a person has, the less likely that they will suffer pain as a result of the physical demands of life.

    To elaborate a little more on the “survival vocabulary” idea – I recall Dr. Cobb stating something to the effect that you can get by or “survive” in a foreign country with a vocabulary of a few hundred words. But that doesn’t make you fluent. He looks at movement the same way. Many people have only a survival vocabulary of movement, and when that vocabulary is exceeded by the demands of life, pain is a likely result. For example, if I don’t have good mobility and coordination in squatting, and I spend the whole weekend gardening, there’s a good chance I will experience some pain.

    At the end of the weekend, I might say that the gardening exceeded my adapative potential, or I might say that squatting is not in my movement vocabulary. That’s the connection I see.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jon Newman
    replied
    Hi Geoff,

    I'm glad you got better. It's curious that you got better even when doing Z exercises wrong. Perhaps you should give yourself more credit and less to the exercise program but that's just my take.

    Oh, yeah, and as unprofessional as this will sound, Z-Health's marketing "ploys" suck. I wasn't "sucked in" by the marketing..
    Actually I agree and as far as I'm concerned, marketing is the only thing that has been accomplished in this thread. I'm all for deleting the whole thing so as not to waste space or give any more eyes to this system. It's already got way more views than it's worth.

    Leave a comment:


  • Luke Rickards
    replied
    Hi there Geoff. Welcome.

    Most of the regular contributors here aren't much interested wonderful results. Telling some people that aliens flew down and fixed them will 'work' for some people. We are interested in the How and whether that How has anything to add to our understanding of human physiology as it relates to practice.

    Since you won't be able to answer any questions here in a scientific manner, your answers in this regard may not be of much help.

    Leave a comment:


  • GeoffNeupert
    replied
    My name is Geoff Neupert. The quote Keats excerpted that started this discussion is off my blog, geoffnsblog.blogspot

    I will admit upfront that I have no knowledge of SomaSimple, Mr. Dorko and his works/systems, or the deep or even many simple workings of neurophysiology. (Looks very interesting though...) I am a trainer and former division 1 strength coach. I have trained athletes from the middle school level to the professional level. I have rehabbed individuals that PTs and chiros could not. My wife is a PT, DPT and graduated from one of the top three PT schools in the country (Just thought I'd throw that in there to show that I can relate to this tough crowd on some level).

    I have had many orthopedic injuries which were not permanently alleviated using chiro (No surprise there, I'm sure, since this is a PT board!), PT, Physiatry, Orthopedic medicine, and massage. I was referred to Z-Health by a colleague and was very skeptical to the point of mockery at first. But you know what, it worked on my injuries, even doing it wrong.

    I have been using Z-Health every day with myself and with my clients for the last 18 months. Some of the trainers who worked for me in my previous business used it daily (still do). I don't care what the names of things that work are, only that things work. If you're system is working for you, great. If it's not or not working as fast for you as your intuition is telling you it should, great. That's exactly how I found Z-Health. Also, although quite expensive to some, my business is doing well enough that $2000 is not that much money for me to spend on a cert/course.

    So please feel free to ask me any questions you may have. I won't be able to answer them on a "deep science" level in most cases, but my experience in the field more than makes up for my lack of knowledge, that is, if you accept that anecdotal evidence is the beginning of the scientific method.

    Thanks, and I hope to be of service.

    Oh, yeah, and as unprofessional as this will sound, Z-Health's marketing "ploys" suck. I wasn't "sucked in" by the marketing, but by the positive experience of getting out of pain.
    Last edited by Diane; 05-08-2007, 05:02 PM. Reason: shorten link

    Leave a comment:


  • nari
    replied
    Another analogy which ties in with what Luke has stated, is this:
    Some people can be stiff and uncoordinated without pain.
    Some can be weak without pain.
    Therefore the correlation between pain and weakness and/or stiffness is tenuous, to say the least, despite a massive industry based on the assumption of correlation.

    Could is indeed a cautious word which could be said more often.

    Thanks Todd

    Nari

    Leave a comment:


  • Barrett Dorko
    replied
    Todd says, "Dr. Cobb believes that many people experience pain because they have only a “survival” vocabulary of movements. By improving your movement vocabulary you can better respond to the physical challenges of life. This sounds like a similar concept to Barrett’s idea of adaptive potential."

    Speaking for myself, I would say that the concepts aren't related in any way whatsoever. If you think so, please explain how.

    Leave a comment:


  • Luke Rickards
    replied
    Todd,
    I appreciate your use of the word "could" throughout your post. I think we should be seeing a bit more of that in relation to Z here.

    Leave a comment:


  • Luke Rickards
    replied
    The theory is that the body works in the following hierarchy (as mentioned before) 1) visual (eye muscle movements) 2) vestibular 3) proprioception
    It seems obvious from this, and Bas alluded to it earlier, that the absolute first step in supporting this theory would be an epidemiological study to show that ALL people with BPPV, Meniere's, labrynthitis, vestibular neuritis, perilymph fistula, acoustic neuroma, nystagmus, all the types of strabismus (exotropia, hypertropia, esotropia), amblyopia, etc, etc, suffer from measurable, systemic postural 'dysfunction', pain, muscle weakness and poor co-ordination.

    Until this is accomplished I don't see how the hypothesis, in its current from, can be taken seriously. From my experience with a few of these conditions I'd willing to bet it's a billion-to-one shot that such a correlation would be found.

    What's left to discuss??

    Leave a comment:


  • Diane
    replied
    Is proprioception the only sort of input he bases this on/thinks is relevant?

    Leave a comment:


  • toddhargrove
    replied
    Hello,

    I thought I would jump in here and offer what I know about Z, which will help fill in some background and context for what Mike has offered. I’m not qualified to offer the detailed science that will answer some of the good questions people have asked, but I think some background would be helpful if this discussion is going to go anywhere. Obviously Dr. Cobb could do a far better job of this, but I know he’s a busy man and thought I might be able to help for the time being.

    For a little background on myself, I am a rolfer in the Seattle area. I have learned a great deal lurking around this site for the last year and have done much of the recommended reading (Butler, Shacklock, etc.) I have also taken a first level Z certification course from Dr. Cobb, called R-phase.

    Mike Nelson has just finished the second level, and I have no knowledge of that. But, I'm fairly sure that what he is discussing regarding the visual and vestibular testing is actually only a small part of Z. If Z was a meal, the visual and vestibular stuff would be like a vitamin supplement (possibly very important for a particular individual’s health), but the first level is the meat and potatoes. So I thought I would take a minute to explain my knowledge of the meat and potatoes so we can have a better context for the discussion.

    I should also point out that what I’m saying here is mostly my interpretation of Z, and it might not be exactly how Dr. Cobb would explain or understand what he is doing. Anyway, here goes.

    Z is a system of movement education based around dynamic joint mobility drills that seek to decrease pain and increase performance. Dr. Cobb has stated that his work is influenced by Feldenkrais, Alexander technique, somatics, and tai chi. In my mind, it is very similar to these techniques in that it is based on very gentle, subtle, precise and mindful movements. My impression is that one of the key differences between Z and these practices is that Z movements are done (at the outset) on an isolated joint by joint basis. This prevents compensation and ensures that each joint is encouraged to recover its normal coordination.

    There are three or four Z drills for each major joint or set of joints in the body, e.g. , the jaw, neck, shoulders, scapula, thoracic spine, hips, ankles, feet, etc. To offer some examples, the neck drills involve lateral tilts, rotations, a/p translations, lateral translations, etc. The shoulder drills involve making small circles to the front/ back inside/out and top/bottom. There are numerous foot drills to mobilize the various joints in the foot and ankle.

    Z places a great deal of emphasis on HOW the movements are done. Some of the main guidelines are as follows.

    1. Use perfect form. This requires concentration and attention and keeps the client in the cognitive phase of motor learning.
    2. Maintain a tall spine throughout the movement This helps develop awareness of and inhibit the startle reflex, as described by Hanna.
    3. NEVER move into pain.
    4. Keep balanced tension and relaxation throughout. This means that the only thing moving should be the joint at issue, and that all other joints should be as relaxed as possible. This helps develop coordinated and differentiated movement, and is very much of a challenge.

    If you do all the drills in this fashion, you are basically working to recoordinate and mobilize each joint in the body while staying relaxed. Although I don’t have the science background to explain (on the deep model level that everyone here likes)why doing this would help with pain or increase performance, but I would assume that the efficacy of the above techniques could be explained by two primary mechanisms.

    First, Z could reduce pain in a similar way to other manual therapies – by using novel movements to cause a proprioceptive barrage that will reduce nociception. Dr. Cobb states in one his seminars that this mechanism, is in his opinion, the basis for the vast majority of successful manual therapies.

    Second, Z could reduce pain by simply improving movement patterns so that they are more efficient, use less energy, cause less wear and tear at joints, avoid nerve impingements, entrapments, etc. One of Dr. Cobb’s concepts is that movement is like a language and that Z is intended to develop “fluency.” Each isolated drill is like a letter, which when integrated with other movement can form words. I believe there may be some motor learning theory which supports the idea that integrated movement patterns are learned by chunking together smaller simpler patterns. Dr. Cobb believes that many people experience pain because they have only a “survival” vocabulary of movements. By improving your movement vocabulary you can better respond to the physical challenges of life. This sounds like a similar concept to Barrett’s idea of adaptive potential.

    Another main principle of Z is that “a problem anywhere can cause pain anywhere else.” In other words the body works as whole, it is amazingly complex, and the site of pain is often not the site of the problem. So, by systematically improving the mobility and coordination of each joint in the body, you can expect that problems throughout the body may begin to resolve, often in very surprising and immediate ways. For example, shoulder pain might be cured by ankle drills.

    This is only a very brief and broad outline of Z at the first level. I know that the second involves vestibular and visual testing as discussed by Mike as well as movement drills that are more integrated and sophisticated. Dr. Cobb also offers a course for manual therapists that recommends reading Explain Pain, Sensitive Nervous System and Clinical Neurodynamics. I understand that this course teaches some very gentle hands on techniques that involve skin stretching. So, I think Dr. Cobb could have an interesting conversation with the people on this Board.

    Anyway, I hope this has been helpful and I would be happy to try and answer further questions.

    Leave a comment:

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