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  • Keats Snideman
    replied
    It seems that I've opened up a giant can of rotten worms here. This wasn't the intention of my original post. If the Soma Simple moderators wish to discontinue this thread it might be a good idea since this doesn't seem to benfefitting anyone. Now if Dr. Cobb could join in it might add to the discussion but it doesn't sound like he'd stand a flying chance on this forum. Are there any Chiro's even on this forum?

    I may have been mistaken posting this thread here...I took a chance however hoping it would help me deepen my understanding of this blessing and a curse we call the human body. Being a licensed massage therapist (and a fitness professional) that deals with a lot of bodies in pain I was intrigued by Barrett Dorko's writings in years past on the old Supertraining list. I followed him to this site and was very impressed with the knowledge level of this on-line community. Since I was never satisfied with explantions and theories from the Z-Health community I thought I'd ask here to see if there were some major gaps in my understanding of the body (as it relates to pain, function, etc.) or if Z-health could practically cure cancer.

    I somtimes wonder if online discussions are sometimes more stilting than enhancing since they miss out of many other aspects of human communication (voice, tone and pitch, emotion, facial expression, etc..). Moshe Feldenkrais believed that words can be terribly inadequate for communication, however for most circumstances they are the best we can do.

    What may have been more effective at the start of this thread is if I posted a video or an explanation of some particular Z-drill, and then posed my questions and objections to the drill such as: What sort of benefits/detriments could come from such a movement? How could this possibly help/worsen symptom X or Y? That way, we could have separated the movement from the system and really tried to distill it down to the most fundamental processes at work.

    If this is the end of thread, thanks to those who contributed their thoughts and opinions.

    Leave a comment:


  • nari
    replied
    Use of the word 'health' is relative.
    Our newspapers are full of advertisements promoting 'health' for people who aren't particularly unhealthy, but possibly bored. Supply and demand thing.
    If a group gets together to get people moving more comfortably, then that is not a bad thing, of course. But if they charge thousands of dollars for learning a set of drills without any concept of the physiological reasoning behind the routines, that is a bad thing. Like paintings, the policy seems to be that the more you pay the better it must be, which, in the consumer world, is largely a rip-off.

    Geoff, the attacks are for systems and courses without bases. Not towards the people who find them useful; they are entitled to do what is best for their needs or desires. Good luck and good health to them.

    Nari

    Leave a comment:


  • Jon Newman
    replied
    I agree that there have been no personal attacks nor has anyone denied the results (in whatever form that term encompasses) from using the concepts they've learned. It's just that stating that it was zhealth or r phase that is important in achieving the results does no work toward understanding what's going on.

    For more attempts at developing a common language, here's the wiki entry on proprioception. Of course this is not the authority but it is at least a reference anyone can look at and agree or disagree.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bas Asselbergs
    replied
    I checked the website and the links within it. Nothing scientific here - no references, no sound theoretical model - nada, niente, nichts, niks, zero, null...I think I made my point.
    It might indeed be time to close the thread...

    Leave a comment:


  • Diane
    replied
    Diane, It's Geoff, not Greg. I can see how the G would confuse you. It's happened all my life.
    Ooops. Sorry, yes I mean Geoff. Apologies.

    I think you mean "sc***ed," right?
    Right.
    I don't get paid to advertise for Z-Health
    Really, you're good at it - you should charge.
    I'll be in to your post to disable your link. I don't want to make it easy for this site to link to that site, but neither do I want it to impossible for people to go there if they must.

    It may feed your scientific curiosity or not
    Probably not. My scientific curiosity is a picky eater.

    I wish you and the others the best of success in your endeavors in helping people get out of pain and into performance.
    I wish you the same. I think most of us here start with folks from way further back than you do. Most of the people I treat are just happy to be able to live a life without pain, full stop - aren't trying out for teams or anything.

    Leave a comment:


  • Barrett Dorko
    replied
    There's been NO personal attack here.

    Leave a comment:


  • GeoffNeupert
    replied
    Originally posted by Diane View Post
    Greg, on this forum we tend to look skeptically behind, underneath, through, upsidedown at everything. We have to or we're sc***ded.

    Proprioception is one sort of input the brain uses to know where it's organism is in space. There is a whole bunch of other input (interoception of all sorts from every kind of tissue everywhere) that it uses to determine its "health".

    I guess I am allergic to all this stuff mainly because of the chirohook thing. We've had lots of discussions here in the past about intellectual honesty and memes and memeplexes and so on. So let's deconstruct this a bit. The very first red flaggy thing that is apparent is the name of the system. What is that word "health" doing in the title?

    In my mind, this system is for non-pathological people who are trying to optimize their performance levels. I don't question the term "performance" or that it's a "system" but the inclusion of the term "health" to me just is needless bait to attract suckers to the training. And that use of the term "z" which appears to be perfectly meaningless, is the "hook", buried inside the bait. When someone asks what it means, the proprietor of the system has the asker nodding along while he's explaining it earnestly. It's already too late - the sucker is hooked and feeling the love, falling all over himself to spend $2000 or whatever on this training. Which may seem great to a fitness trainer or whatever, but around here we aren't too intrigued by any of this stuff. We are immune to the seductive charm of charismatic chiro snake oil sellers and it just smells pseudoscientific right from the start. It is so typical, such a standard tactic used by chiro types to separate people from their money.

    At best, I'd sum the whole thing up by saying that it's all pretty much window dressing, repackaging of old stuff that is a novel stimulus to a fitness trainer's mind (it must get a bit boring, flinging that kettle thingy around after awhile..).

    I mean you and the other posters on this topic no disrespect, but personally I am not especially interested in having this forum become a site that advertises by default a system that does not feed the scientific curiosity of PTs and instead focuses their attention back on mesoderm with only lip service paid to ectodermal unravellings. So we may actually lock the thread, disable the links, but leave it intact as an example of where we do NOT want this forum to go.
    Diane, It's Geoff, not Greg. I can see how the G would confuse you. It's happened all my life.

    I think you mean "sc***ed," right?

    I understand you skepticism. My wife's a PT as I mentioned and I don't particularly like Chiros.

    The Z stands for some Russian word which I can't pronounce let alone spell (linguistics aren't my thing) that stands for "movement." And actually, I went kicking and screaming to Z simply because my physiatrist friend, who is so smart he's like a PT on steroids, couldn't get me out of pain and into performance.

    The word "health" is in the title because without health, you can only have short-term performance without it. (The name Jesse Marunde ring a bell? He was the US's #1 World's Strongest Man Competitor this year. He just died at age 27 from a heart attack. Great performance. Poor health.)

    Here's the link to Z's FAQ. It may feed your scientific curiosity or not. http://www.zhealth. net/zhealth-getting-started. asp

    As I mentioned before, I don't get paid to advertise for Z-Health. For me you just tell people about the good things you're experiencing because you want them to experience them too.

    Unfortunately, this is turning into a p***ing match which it's not supposed to be. Personal attacks are unfounded and unprofessional.

    Here's what I know about Z: It helps me and it helps my clients where other approaches didn't. I didn't particularly like spending 2 grand to learn the info, but it's been worth it.

    I wish you and the others the best of success in your endeavors in helping people get out of pain and into performance.
    Last edited by Diane; 05-08-2007, 09:54 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jon Newman
    replied
    Hi Geoff,

    You state,

    If so then we can all agree that human performance is nothing more advanced than movement and varying degrees of movement.
    I think this is important. I've tried to take on the following operational definitions as they seem reasonable. At least to the extent that I understand them. The whole text can be found herefor anyone interested in more.

    Let us start by defining actions. Actions, for some classes of nervous systems, are elementary building blocks of reality, too. Some kinds of organisms have developed agent-detecting modules, and some of them also conceive of themselves as agents. They have an extended ontology, because their reality has been considerably
    enriched. Let us call such systems possessors of an “action ontology.” We now have to distinguish movements, behavior, and actions. Bodily movements are simple physical events, and they can be represented accordingly. Behaviors are movements that are goal-directed, i.e. which can meaningfully be described as directed towards a set of satisfaction conditions, but without necessarily being linked to an explicit and conscious representation of such conditions [5]. A dramatic example is presented by a neurological disorder known as anarchic hand syndrome [6]. As simple motor acts, they also do not have a reward-producing component (Rizzolatti et al.,2001, p. 668). In particular, behavior is something that can take place in the absence of conscious self-attribution.

    Actions are a specific subset of goal-directed movements: a series of movements that are functionally integrated with a currently active goal representation as leading to a reward constitute an action. Therefore, an action is not isomorphic to a particular movement or specific behavioral pattern, because many different movements
    can constitute the same goal-directed action. What individuates an action is the set of satisfaction conditions defining the representational content of its goal component as leading to a reward plus the special way in which it is causally linked to the actual event of overt movement generation. In particular, an action results from a selection process (which may or may not be conscious) and a representation of the system as a whole as standing in a certain relation to a specific goal-state (which is phenomenally represented, e.g. globally available via short-term memory).

    The second defining characteristic is that an action in the true sense not only involves an explicit and conscious self-representation, but also a representation of the perspective the system now takes onto the world. That is, the selection process may well be unconscious, but it inevitably leads to a more global final stage resulting in a conscious representation of the system as a whole—as having an intention, as initiating and executing its own bodily movements. In other words, on the phenomenal level we always find a corresponding global state in which the system as a whole is itself represented as an agent.
    Some other thoughts:

    The blog that was excerpted was my private blog for my thoughts on Z-Health and its role in rehabbing my multiple injuries and getting me back on the weightlifting platform.
    What I will do is try to put forth some scientific concepts, without sarcasm, innuendo, or personal attack that we can all hopefully agree on that will give us some common ground upon which to not only stand but to move forward in understanding what Z-Health is and what it does.
    Is Z-health something other than a marketing package of known principles of physiology (along with some false ones)? I mean there aren't some people in z health and the rest of the world right? You don't take z-health like a pill or have it performed upon you like a surgery. If so, what principles are included in the marketing package known as zhealth that are lacking from other iterations of physical training?

    Leave a comment:


  • Barrett Dorko
    replied
    Okay, Dr.Cobb has been invited both through the web site and his personal email address.

    Leave a comment:


  • GeoffNeupert
    replied
    Originally posted by Jason Silvernail View Post
    Randy-
    My Star Trek fitness program is trademarked. My Lawyers will be contacting you shortly.
    And, the reason the crystals aren't included is that that comes later, and the third level of certification, the "D Phase". You haven't paid for the goods yet, and you haven't seen real results since you haven't paid the $2000 to get to see Romulan Disruptor Periodization Concepts - it will totally rock your training and it's based on the nervous system. [/sarcasm]

    These supposed "systems" like Z-Health are great for snagging the great ocean of slightly educated fitness trainers and conditioning people out there. Here's why:
    1. They unfortunately don't know what they don't know about the human body. And they know just enough to make them dangerous, and just enough to make this crap sound plausible.
    2. They also have a very large toolbox mentality that encourages them to find what "works" (especially if works for them or their clients personally) without regard to whether it makes sense.
    3. They talk to their clients about their aches and pains and problems, and absorb the complaints into their psyche, such that they tend to be very suspicious of standard medicine - in their eyes it's "failed" too many people. A result of this is that they tend to embrace with open arms anything that standard medicine and therapy isn't. My wife, a personal trainer, puts it this way: they like this stuff not for what it "is", but for what it "isn't".
    4. After seeing people in pain have less pain when they are active and when they interact with a positive person (the trainer), they tend to feel qualified to give people medical advice and to attempt to make medical diagnoses and provide medical care. Needless to say, they are woefully unqualified for such work. This fact, however, is usually lost on them.

    My wife and I talk often of the utter infestation of quackery in fitness and training, and those points are some of the top contenders. Part of why I like the NSCA so much is that they are well-educated trainers and coaches who don't go in for this type of crap.
    Jason,

    Unfortunately, I agree with most of your points. Unfortunately, I have not represented my thoughts well regarding Z-Health here up to this point. I'd like to address your points since they seem to be directed toward me.

    Actually, your statement about uneducated trainers being snagged by systems like Z-Health shows your own personal bias and ignorance: Z "snags" trainers who are currently unsatisfied with the current offerings of some of the fitness programs out there "based on science" like Dr. Mike Clark's, (DPT, PT, MS) National Academy of Sports Medicine's OPT model and Mark Verstegen's "Core Performance" program and can poke holes in their models and tell you where the models broke down with their clients. (Ever notice how similar, almost identical these two programs look? Who's going to sue whom first do you think?)

    1. It is true. I know that I don't know a lot about the human body, especially when it comes to neuroscience, etc. However, I am quite skilled and well versed on the musculoskeletal end of things and in manipulating the CNS thru loading to improve desired outcomes: speed, strength, body comp changes, etc. I see you are a DPT. So's my wife. That means that we probably have many of the same books on our shelves. I can and do read. I can also assure you that I am not dangerous and professionals in the medical field like physiatrists and orthopods can confirm that since they have sent me their patients and have liked the results.

    2. What's wrong with using something without fully understanding how it works? Can you describe for us all the individual components of your car and what they do and how they work together to get you from point A to point B? (Please be as detailed as possible from the electrical system to the fuel pump.) If you can't, why do you drive--it could be "dangerous." (Arguably, we know it is dangerous that's why we impose limits and standards not only on drivers but on the operations of the vehicle.)

    3. Actually, I believe whole-heartedly in standard medicine, when it's appropriate, like when I had my appendectomy. However, the cortisone shot in my hip only treated the symptom, which was inflammation caused by a torn labrum. It lasted 6 weeks. It didn't fix the underlying issues, which were movement (or lack thereof) related. The other option was surgery. I'm sure you can see why I wouldn't want to do that.

    4. I don't give medical advice. I'm not a doctor. Or a doctor of physcial therapy. I recognize that I am woefully unqualified to give this advice. However, one of my very good friends is a family practice MD. He recognizes that he is woefully unqualified to give information above and beyond "move more, eat less" to his patients regarding exercise and nutrition. For the rest, he picks my brain.

    5. Regarding the NSCA. I've been CSCS credentialed for 10 years. Last re-cert period I could've gotten the little *D after my CSCS if I chose to pay the extra $ and submit the requisite paperwork. (Now my words should carry more weight with you anyway...) However, I let my membership expire when 2 things happened: 1. In the monthly journal they published a program for improving mountain-biking performance that looked exactly like a football training program from the hang cleans to the agility drills; 2. When they elected a PT as the president of a "strength and conditioning association." If the irony of that statement is lost on you, well then, you're on your own...Not only that, I've met my fair share of CSCS's who don't know their C's from the S's, if you catch my drift. And just for future reference, if you don't know this already, a word of professional advice: never tell an olympic lifter how to squat--you'll only embarrass yourself. (I actually had a CSCS in the medical field try to do this to me...) What's my point in "sharing" this last part with you? We're all on the same team. We can all learn from each other. Just because you may have more letters after your name and more "formal" education then someone else only means one thing: You fit well into the teaching/learning model in our public institutions. You may not have heard this saying, but I believe it's appropriate here: The devil's not wise because he's smart, but because he's old. The point? Don't discount experience. Here's another thing: Right about the point in time when the PT was elected president, a bunch of the old-school coaches who belonged to the NSCA when it was The National Strength Coaches Association formed their own group called the Collegiate Strength & Conditioning Coaches Association which brought them back to their "roots." Why do you think they did that do you suppose?

    By the way, I won't be buying your Star Trek fitness program. I'm not a big Star Trek fan. If you could design a Star Wars fitness program, you may be onto something...

    Leave a comment:


  • Diane
    replied
    Greg, on this forum we tend to look skeptically behind, underneath, through, upsidedown at everything. We have to or we're sc***ded.

    Proprioception is one sort of input the brain uses to know where it's organism is in space. There is a whole bunch of other input (interoception of all sorts from every kind of tissue everywhere) that it uses to determine its "health".

    I guess I am allergic to all this stuff mainly because of the chirohook thing. We've had lots of discussions here in the past about intellectual honesty and memes and memeplexes and so on. So let's deconstruct this a bit. The very first red flaggy thing that is apparent is the name of the system. What is that word "health" doing in the title?

    In my mind, this system is for non-pathological people who are trying to optimize their performance levels. I don't question the term "performance" or that it's a "system" (not too sure about the term "solutions" frankly), but the inclusion of the term "health" to me just is needless bait to attract suckers to the training. And that use of the term "z" which appears to be perfectly meaningless, is the "hook", buried inside the bait. When someone asks what it means, the proprietor of the system has the asker nodding along while he's explaining it earnestly. It's already too late - the sucker is hooked and feeling the love, falling all over himself to spend $2000 or whatever on this training. Which may seem great to a fitness trainer or whatever, but around here we aren't too intrigued by any of this stuff. We are immune to the seductive charm of charismatic chiro snake oil sellers and it just smells pseudoscientific right from the start. It is so typical, such a standard tactic used by chiro types to separate people from their money.

    At best, I'd sum the whole thing up by saying that it's all pretty much window dressing, repackaging of old stuff that is a novel stimulus to a fitness trainer's mind (it must get a bit boring, flinging that kettle thingy around after awhile..).

    I mean you and the other posters on this topic no disrespect, but personally I am not especially interested in having this forum become a site that advertises by default a system that does not feed the scientific curiosity of PTs and instead focuses their attention back on mesoderm with only lip service paid to ectodermal unravellings. So we may actually lock the thread, disable the links, but leave it intact as an example of where we do NOT want this forum to go.
    Last edited by Diane; 05-08-2007, 09:14 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • GeoffNeupert
    replied
    I should've known the can of worms I would open by posting late at night and using phrases like "deep science."

    First, in my defense, I am not a healthcare provider. I am not in the medical field. Nor do I wish to be. I am in the fitness field. I do not look to replace the role of the PT or anyone else in the medical field. The blog that was excerpted was my private blog for my thoughts on Z-Health and its role in rehabbing my multiple injuries and getting me back on the weightlifting platform. What it has evolved into is an internal commentary on all things that relate to Z-Health, including the role this system plays with my clients.

    Second, by now it should be obvious that I will not be providing scientific abstracts here to substantiate my claims. If you need these to proceed, stop here. What I will do is try to put forth some scientific concepts, without sarcasm, innuendo, or personal attack that we can all hopefully agree on that will give us some common ground upon which to not only stand but to move forward in understanding what Z-Health is and what it does.

    Third, I think we can all agree on a few things here. We are all in the same profession: helping enhance human performance.

    As PTs, you deal with altered/broken/faulty human performance and as a trainer I deal with altered/substandard human performance.

    Can we all agree on that?

    If so then we can all agree that human performance is nothing more advanced than movement and varying degrees of movement. Unfortunately, most trainers want to load substandard movement either through force or velocity. We have fancy programs we design that are micro-periodized and that train multiple motor qualities, etc, etc, etc...But what we fail at is understanding movement in it's simplest form. What is that? I'm guessing it's gait.

    The Z-Health R-Phase Assessment is based on a gait analysis. That's it.

    Proprioception. Hopefully we can all agree on what this is. I'll offer my definition in its simplest terms (I don't go for fancy--if you're looking for that, you'll be disappointed): The body's 3D map of itself. Z-Health, particularly R-Phase, seeks to increase proprioception via active joint mobility drills that focus on creating a full ROM in each joint. Why focus on the joints? Because of the large amount of mechanoreceptors found in the joint capsules. The mechanoreceptors are the largest, fastest propriocpetors and they send the quickest signal to the brain. They have the largest ability to impact the body as a whole. How does this improve proprioception? If a joint has lost full ROM, then the body no longer has access to that movement or any movement patterns that result from that particular movement. The body "forgets" how to move in that particular way. I believe Thomas Hanna coined this term "sensorimotor amnesia." If we can increase proprioception, then we can increase movement options.

    Before I go on, I'll see what comes of this post.

    And Mr. Dorko, if you wish Dr. Cobb to join this forum to explain his system better than I can, e-mail him at drcobb@ zhealth. net. He's a very easy-going guy. He may not even be aware that this resource exists.
    Last edited by Diane; 05-08-2007, 08:49 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Diane
    replied
    Ditto Jason and Barrett. Here's another thing to add to Jason's list: Dream up a completely incomprehensible name that says nothing, like z health, and wait for people to ask you what it means, start explaining it to them and they will listenm, and start their nodding process. They are already half hooked into buying the training. The letter "z" is the hook, and the word "health" is the worm that covers the hook until it's too late, and you are 2000 dollars out of pocket for a recombined package of flim flam.

    Leave a comment:


  • Barrett Dorko
    replied
    Well, Jason said it better than I could, and I agree with him entirely.

    Geoff says, "I won't be able to answer them on a "deep science" level in most cases, but my experience in the field more than makes up for my lack of knowledge, that is, if you accept that anecdotal evidence is the beginning of the scientific method." This comment contains just about everything that's wrong with "alternative" approaches. "Experience" can never make up for ignorance and anecdotal evidence is not the beginning of the scientific method. In fact, it's been argued that there is no such thing as "the scientific method," but perhaps that's another thread. Geoff's comment is the kind of thing that perpetuated the use of bloodletting for "health" from 300 to 1875. I presume that no one here will say I am equating this "Z" stuff to bloodletting. I'm not, of course, but the absence of thoughtfulness promoted by ignorance is much the same. In health care this will prove troublesome and problematic at best, and injurious at worst. We can do better.

    Jason chose some time ago to place a quote from me beneath his name and I will admit it makes me smile each time: "It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage, but what you have come to understand and are willing to express."

    Though courageous enough to place their opinions regarding effect on these pages, the "Z" people have yet to indicate that they understand anything about the systems they are treating and have freely admitted this. If Dr. Cobb understands anything he doesn't evidently teach that part and if he shows up here I will be amazed - I am unwilling to accept "too busy" as an excuse to defend the theory underlying the care I or anyone else provides. However, if I knew I didn't have a defendable theory I'd remain silent.

    No courage is required for that.
    Last edited by Barrett Dorko; 05-08-2007, 03:17 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jason Silvernail
    replied
    Randy-
    My Star Trek fitness program is trademarked. My Lawyers will be contacting you shortly.
    And, the reason the crystals aren't included is that that comes later, and the third level of certification, the "D Phase". You haven't paid for the goods yet, and you haven't seen real results since you haven't paid the $2000 to get to see Romulan Disruptor Periodization Concepts - it will totally rock your training and it's based on the nervous system. [/sarcasm]

    These supposed "systems" like Z-Health are great for snagging the great ocean of slightly educated fitness trainers and conditioning people out there. Here's why:
    1. They unfortunately don't know what they don't know about the human body. And they know just enough to make them dangerous, and just enough to make this crap sound plausible.
    2. They also have a very large toolbox mentality that encourages them to find what "works" (especially if works for them or their clients personally) without regard to whether it makes sense.
    3. They talk to their clients about their aches and pains and problems, and absorb the complaints into their psyche, such that they tend to be very suspicious of standard medicine - in their eyes it's "failed" too many people. A result of this is that they tend to embrace with open arms anything that standard medicine and therapy isn't. My wife, a personal trainer, puts it this way: they like this stuff not for what it "is", but for what it "isn't".
    4. After seeing people in pain have less pain when they are active and when they interact with a positive person (the trainer), they tend to feel qualified to give people medical advice and to attempt to make medical diagnoses and provide medical care. Needless to say, they are woefully unqualified for such work. This fact, however, is usually lost on them.

    My wife and I talk often of the utter infestation of quackery in fitness and training, and those points are some of the top contenders. Part of why I like the NSCA so much is that they are well-educated trainers and coaches who don't go in for this type of crap.

    Leave a comment:

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