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  • More Infuriating Chiropractic Garbage...

    Hard to figure out why they are universally considered such a greasy and shady profession...

    This must be just yet ANOTHER example of those "few bad apples" we keep hearing about from the chiros...seems more than a few to me...

    Here's an example

    Here's more on that
    Jason Silvernail DPT, DSc, FAAOMPT
    Board-Certified in Orthopedic Physical Therapy
    Fellowship-Trained in Orthopedic Manual Therapy

    Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist


    The views expressed in this entry are those of the author alone and do not reflect the official policy or position of the Department of the Army, Department of Defense, or the US Government.

  • #2
    Alas, more of the same for which they have become famous. They seem to not know or care where lobbying ends and bribery begins. They seem to think it's all the same thing. It's hard to know for sure if there are any good apples in there.
    Diane
    www.dermoneuromodulation.com
    SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
    HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
    Neurotonics PT Teamblog
    Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
    Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
    @PainPhysiosCan
    WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
    @WCPTPTPN
    Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

    @dfjpt
    SomaSimple on Facebook
    @somasimple

    "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

    “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

    “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

    "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

    "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

    Comment


    • #3
      Here is a very good analysis of the whole cheesy chiropractic game. Many of the links are broken unfortunately.

      They have the regulatory body they deserve

      Imagine a nation in which millions of people routinely sought medical treatment from a group of practitioners who relied on the unusual and extremely unlikely theories of a failed fish peddler with a history of touting the healing power of magnets.

      These practitioners attend "colleges" which stress the value of practitioners spending a lot of time with patients -- a half-hour as opposed to the typical seven-minute visit with a regular medical doctor -- to bond with them and create a sense that they really care.

      These practitioners benefit immensely from the fact that the primary ailment they treat for the most part goes away on its own within a few weeks, allowing them to claim their treatment is why, whether or not it was responsible.

      They are not satisfied with just treating this ailment, so some also assert they can treat everything from congenital diseases to asthma to heart disease to polio.

      Some are among the leading advocates of the literally lethal view that childhood vaccinations are a health threat -- even as they constantly push their young, more-radiation-vulnerable patients to get dangerous X-rays that are suspected of helping cause cancer later in life.

      These practitioners do all this with a straight face even though literally no one has ever been able to prove that "subluxations" -- the ailment they say is the main cause of health woes -- even exist.

      Well, you don't have to imagine any of this. It's all a fact. Given the amazing history of this profession, I had to laugh at the reports that the state agency that regulates it has collapsed in chaos, with its board illegally firing its executive director, ejecting a deputy state attorney general from its board's meeting, extending accreditation to a school against the agency's own rules, and deciding to let practitioners use a medical technique they had no training in.

      In the Board of Chiropractic Examiners, California's chiropractors have exactly the sort of oversight they deserve.

      Read up on the "subluxation" myth here.

      Read what the American Cancer Society has to say about chiropractic here.

      Read about how back pain usually goes away on its own in this National Institutes of Health overview.

      And before you write me with impassioned defenses of chiropractors or nasty notes about my sanity or allegations that I must have had a feud with a chiropractor and just want payback, please take a deep breath and consider the following:

      Even if you like your chiropractor and think he helps with your back pain, how on Earth can you defend a profession whose scientific incoherence and mystical origins allow its practitioners to pretend they can treat everything from congenital diseases to asthma to heart disease to polio?

      OK, proceed with the abuse, the bogus research, the false depiction of the famous RAND study. (It says chiropractic "does benefit some people with acute low-back pain." It does not say chiropractic has a scientific basis -- think about the implications of that -- or is a magic cure-all for a long list of ailments.) I've heard it all before. The facts are my defense.
      Posted by Chris Reed at March 16, 2007 05:40 PM |
      Diane
      www.dermoneuromodulation.com
      SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
      HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
      Neurotonics PT Teamblog
      Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
      Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
      @PainPhysiosCan
      WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
      @WCPTPTPN
      Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

      @dfjpt
      SomaSimple on Facebook
      @somasimple

      "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

      “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

      “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

      "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

      "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

      Comment


      • #4
        Instead of arguing with straight chiropractors you should just offer to enrich them. The James Randi Educational Foundation will give a million dollars to anyone who can demonstrate paranormal claims. From the site:

        The following things are paranormal by definition:

        Dowsing. ESP. Precognition. Remote Viewing. Communicating with the Dead and/or "Channeling". Violations of Newton's Laws of Motion (Perpetual Motion Devices). Homeopathy. Chiropractic Healing (beyond back/joint problems). Faith Healing. Psychic Surgery. Astrology. Therapeutic Touch (aka "TT"). Qi Gong. Psychokinesis (aka "PK"). The Existence of Ghosts. Precognition & Prophecy. Levitation. Physiognomy. Psychometry. Pyramid Power. Reflexology. Applied Kinesiology (aka "AK"). Clairvoyance. The Existence of Auras. Graphology. Numerology. Palmistry. Phrenology.

        http://www.randi.org/research/faq.html

        Comment


        • #5
          I have been a quiet observer for some time and have never actually posted anything to date.

          First off, I am a chiropractor. I limit my scope to MSK. "Subluxation", in the chiropractic sense , is not part of my vocabulary. I use high velocity manipulation sparingly and I am as evidence-based as I possibly can be. I use many techniques that physiotherapists use and have worked with physiotherapists for some time.

          I have read plenty about chiropractors on-line and have to admit that I'm embarassed about much of what I read.

          But I must also say that there are still "good apples" out there. We (if I may be so bold to include myself) tend to be the less vocal, less aggresive ones that are at weekend courses learning new clinical skills instead of at shopping malls doing spinal screenings.

          My one request is that people distinguish between subluxation/philosophy based and the evidenced based chiropractors when speaking about them.

          Comment


          • #6
            Good point Randy.

            luca m., a few "good" apples cannot save a whole barrel.

            Just to keep all chiro related matters together in one thread, here's a link to a discussion at EIM on high neck manipulation. Here's a link to a petition out of Australia that wants warning signs put into offices of people who use this procedure. As one reads through the comments, it is ridiculously easy to pick out who is a chiro and who isn't.
            Diane
            www.dermoneuromodulation.com
            SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
            HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
            Neurotonics PT Teamblog
            Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
            Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
            @PainPhysiosCan
            WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
            @WCPTPTPN
            Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

            @dfjpt
            SomaSimple on Facebook
            @somasimple

            "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

            “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

            “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

            "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

            "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

            Comment


            • #7
              I don't know Diane, there looks to be a bunch of kooks of all flavors on that list.

              Luca,

              I did make the distinction by referring to "straight" chiropractors. I didn't mean they were heterosexual. The question I have is, isn't it time the rational chiropractors quit being quiet and non-vocal? In the current US political climate I hear a phrase that I think is applicable, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." I don't think PT or any field is free from similar problems, the difference I see is who comprises the core of the profession and who is on the fringe.

              Comment


              • #8
                I think chiropractic has its hands full trying to figure out what it is and marketing it to the public.

                Attached is a well written opinion piece by Homola that does a good job capturing their dilemma.
                Attached Files
                "I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris

                Comment


                • #9
                  Anything to save the sacred toolkit, eh?
                  Diane
                  www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                  SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                  HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                  Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                  Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                  Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                  @PainPhysiosCan
                  WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                  @WCPTPTPN
                  Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                  @dfjpt
                  SomaSimple on Facebook
                  @somasimple

                  "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                  “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                  “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                  "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                  "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Jason Silvernail View Post
                    Hard to figure out why they are universally considered such a greasy and shady profession...

                    This must be just yet ANOTHER example of those "few bad apples" we keep hearing about from the chiros...seems more than a few to me...

                    Here's an example

                    Here's more on that
                    I just don't get it. What exactly would make you happy? I am a DC, and everytime I see a new patient, I spend 30-minutes with them. I do a thorough physical, orthopedic, neurological, and functional based exam. I discuss their therapeutic options, including what I have to offer (manipulation, physiotherapy, exercise, ROM, traction, etc.). I use the same diagnostic and therapeutic tools that most PT's do. I utilize imaging when it is clinically indicated and appropriate. If manipulation is so "dangerous", then why do PT's take courses on it and use it in their clinics? And do PT's ever do VBAI testing or send patients for imaging (MRA) or bloodwork (homocysteine levels) when they suspect vascular problems that could result in stroke? Of course not - because they can't. PT scope of practice prohibits diagnostic testing. I regularly attend courses that PT's attend as well. I hear all kinds of anti-chiropractic stories, 99% of which have no merit whatsoever. I am McKenzie Certified, yet have never seen a McKenzie-treated patient improve during the course of a 4-day hands on course. I have read Dorko's critique of Jones Strain-Counterstrain and Myofascial Release, yet I see no peer-reviewed studies on the efficacy of his Simple Neural Technique. Does anybody read Spine? Take a look at the favorable record of manipulation/chiropractic in the healthcare arena. Now, the DPT weekend programs allow for direct access for "advanced" therapists. Answer me this - and be honest. Do you dislike chiropractors, or are you jealous of their favorable clinical outcomes, access to patients, and ability to diagnose through appropriate imaging and labwork?

                    - An Evidence Based Chiropractor

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hi Jay,

                      Welcome to Soma. I'll at least try to start answering your question,

                      What exactly would make you happy?
                      Not bribing legislators in return for favorable insurance practices would be a good start for me. By bribing I especially mean that which is beyond being legal. I'd say this for PTs or Chiros.

                      By the way, the thread is "Infuriating Chiropractic Garbage." What did you expect to see in this sort of thread? You may have noticed our "Myofascial release: The Great Conversation" thread on the front page. In hind sight that could have been named "Infuriating Physical Therapy Garbage."
                      "I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Simple Neural?
                        Barrett L. Dorko

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hi Jay.
                          Trust me, there's no jealousy, least of which for the supposed superior clinical outcomes. Who's producing all the best research in the rehab and management of NMS conditions? Oh, yeah, PTs. Thanks for playing, though.

                          The reason I don't do VBAI testing is because it can't predict who will or won't have a bad reaction to cervical manual therapy. If you were evidence-based, I'd think you'd know this. I actually have a range of diagnostic testing that I order as a PT in the US Army. I don't find diagnostic tests that useful, since most people who have problems I'm best equipped to treat have had too many tests and not enough understanding and hands-on examination and treatment. Plus if I suspected a serious problem(such as a stroke or VBI in this example), I'd refer to someone whose depth of education is appropriate to handle it - a medical doctor of the appropriate specialty.

                          I'm not anti-chiro, I'm against the large amount of posturing and deliberate attempts to legislate my profession away that is typical of the organized groups of chiropractors. Like most true scientists, I save my most strident criticism for those in my own profession.
                          I judge individuals individually, not by the letters behind their name. Though it does prove a useful guide in most cases, wouldn't you agree?
                          Jason Silvernail DPT, DSc, FAAOMPT
                          Board-Certified in Orthopedic Physical Therapy
                          Fellowship-Trained in Orthopedic Manual Therapy

                          Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist


                          The views expressed in this entry are those of the author alone and do not reflect the official policy or position of the Department of the Army, Department of Defense, or the US Government.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            what I have to offer (manipulation, physiotherapy, exercise, ROM, traction, etc.).
                            Hi Jay,
                            I sure hope you have a physiotherapist providing your physiotherapy. Otherwise, that is some of the garbage of which we speak.

                            I know of chiro's saying they provide PT only they can't legally call it that. Or they'll say they provide physical therapuetics or physiotherapy just to change the name enough to not officially be illegal. Imagine if I said I provide chiropractic, or chiropracticals, or chiropracticism if I did manipulation. Kind of insulting, and inaccurate, right?
                            Cory Blickenstaff, PT, OCS

                            Pain Science and Sensibility Podcast
                            Leaps and Bounds Blog
                            My youtube channel

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Cory,
                              Would the term physiotherapeutic modalities be more appropriate?

                              Comment

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