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  • #76
    Hi Wes,

    Here's the abstract to Luca's reference.

    Author Cramer, G; Gregerson, D; Knudsen, JT;Hubbard, BB; Ustas, L; Cantu, JA

    Title The Effects of Side-Posture Positioning and Spinal Adjusting on the Lumbar Z Joints: A Randomized Controlled Trial With Sixty-Four Subjects.

    Source Spine. 27(22):2459-2466, November 15, 2002.

    Abstract

    Study Design. A blinded, randomized controlled trial was conducted.

    Objective. To test the hypothesis that chiropractic side-posture manipulation (adjusting) of the lumbar spine separates (gaps) the zygapophysial (Z) joints.

    Summary of Background Data. Spinal adjusting is thought to gap the Z joints, yet no studies have conclusively validated this hypothesis, and some investigators have reported that the lumbar Z joints do not gap during rotation.

    Methods. For this study, 64 healthy student volunteers (32 men and 32 women) ages 22 to 30 years with no history of significant low back pain were randomized into four groups of 8 men and 8 women each. Interventions included lumbar side-posture spinal adjusting (manipulation) and side-posture positioning. Anterior to posterior measurements of the Z joints from MRI scans taken before and after side-posture spinal adjusting and before and after side-posture positioning were compared.

    Results. Observers performing the measurements were blinded as to group and first and second scans. Reliability of the measurements was established. Differences were found between the groups (F = 24.15;P < 0.000, analysis of variance). Side-posture positioning showed greater gapping than the control condition (mean difference, 1.18;P < 0.000); side-posture adjusting showed greater gapping than the control condition (mean difference, 1.89;P < 0.000), and side-posture adjusting showed greater gapping than side-posture positioning (mean difference, 0.71;P = 0.047).

    Conclusions. Spinal adjusting produced increased separation (gapping) of the Z joints. Side-posture positioning also produced gapping, but less than that seen with lumbar side-posture adjusting. This study helps to increase understanding about the mechanism of action for spinal manipulation.
    Wes, let me know if you want the full text.
    Last edited by Jon Newman; 12-04-2007, 07:54 PM.
    "I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris

    Comment


    • #77
      Luca and Jon,

      With your help, I was able to find it full text. Thanks for the assistance.

      Wes

      Comment


      • #78
        Here is a link to a Canadian story today about a woman who died after neck manipulation by a chiropractor.
        Diane
        www.dermoneuromodulation.com
        SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
        HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
        Neurotonics PT Teamblog
        Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
        Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
        @PainPhysiosCan
        WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
        @WCPTPTPN
        Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

        @dfjpt
        SomaSimple on Facebook
        @somasimple

        "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

        “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

        “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

        "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

        "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

        Comment


        • #79
          More chiropractic crapola...

          Here's a link with even more infuriating Chiropractic Garbage!
          Hard to believe our professions don't get along, huh?

          Ridiculous Tennessee Situation
          Jason Silvernail DPT, DSc, FAAOMPT
          Board-Certified in Orthopedic Physical Therapy
          Fellowship-Trained in Orthopedic Manual Therapy

          Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist


          The views expressed in this entry are those of the author alone and do not reflect the official policy or position of the Department of the Army, Department of Defense, or the US Government.

          Comment


          • #80
            Being Canadian, I'm unaware of any provincial chiropractic organization that has attempted to restrict PT's from manipulation here.
            Dianne, have you heared/seen anything like this in BC or elsewhere in Canada?

            Seems

            Comment


            • #81
              Luca,

              There was a case in Quebec, I believe, where some chiros pretended to be patients. I believe the Supreme Court found in favour of the PTs but again this was a ways back and I am unsure of the specific details.

              The irony is that virtually all of the high quality research regarding manipulation has been done by physiotherapists.

              Steve

              Comment


              • #82
                I think this brings to light many of the things we are dealing with in the States, in terms of practice protection, etc.

                We definitely have to deal with a lot of stuff you guys in the Commonwealth countries had sorted out from the start...
                Jason Silvernail DPT, DSc, FAAOMPT
                Board-Certified in Orthopedic Physical Therapy
                Fellowship-Trained in Orthopedic Manual Therapy

                Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist


                The views expressed in this entry are those of the author alone and do not reflect the official policy or position of the Department of the Army, Department of Defense, or the US Government.

                Comment


                • #83
                  I vaguely remember that too Steve. PTs won.

                  I'm sure that the difference between Canada and the US is that in Canada PTs carved out and consolidated that turf early, very early, because most of the ones that maniped were army guys from the Brit army who were also in charge of setting up PT infrastructure. These guys would have brooked no nonsense from chiros, I'm sure. As it stands, PTs in Canada have always had the right to manip, at least in English speaking Canada, as far as I know, as long as they were taught by someone who knew the moves.

                  That they never had any good theory that made sense is a side issue, but one that manipulators will have to face sooner or later.
                  Diane
                  www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                  SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                  HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                  Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                  Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                  Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                  @PainPhysiosCan
                  WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                  @WCPTPTPN
                  Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                  @dfjpt
                  SomaSimple on Facebook
                  @somasimple

                  "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                  “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                  “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                  "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                  "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Here's a link to a magazine article about neck manip and stroke.
                    Diane
                    www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                    SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                    HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                    Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                    Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                    Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                    @PainPhysiosCan
                    WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                    @WCPTPTPN
                    Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                    @dfjpt
                    SomaSimple on Facebook
                    @somasimple

                    "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                    “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                    “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                    "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                    "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Hi Diane,

                      The day you posted your last link to Self magazine, there were 30 replies in the comment section of the magazine. Today there are 48. The comments are as revealing as the article.
                      "I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Yes Jon,
                        Some things just never change. Deny, deny, deny.
                        Diane
                        www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                        SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                        HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                        Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                        Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                        Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                        @PainPhysiosCan
                        WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                        @WCPTPTPN
                        Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                        @dfjpt
                        SomaSimple on Facebook
                        @somasimple

                        "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                        “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                        “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                        "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                        "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Today there are 54 comments.
                          Diane
                          www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                          SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                          HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                          Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                          Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                          Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                          @PainPhysiosCan
                          WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                          @WCPTPTPN
                          Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                          @dfjpt
                          SomaSimple on Facebook
                          @somasimple

                          "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                          “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                          “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                          "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                          "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Funny how criticism of the chiropractic profession involves the same old tired arguments in response - those comments can be lifted and put anywhere else and they'd fit right in...
                            Jason Silvernail DPT, DSc, FAAOMPT
                            Board-Certified in Orthopedic Physical Therapy
                            Fellowship-Trained in Orthopedic Manual Therapy

                            Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist


                            The views expressed in this entry are those of the author alone and do not reflect the official policy or position of the Department of the Army, Department of Defense, or the US Government.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              The lines are so scripted. Straight out of chiro school's justification for their own existence. Taught to students from day one. Propagated out to chiro "consumers" after that. Very tired wornout raggedy memes from a hundred years ago til the present day. Still hooking the non-thinking public.
                              Diane
                              www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                              SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                              HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                              Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                              Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                              Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                              @PainPhysiosCan
                              WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                              @WCPTPTPN
                              Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                              @dfjpt
                              SomaSimple on Facebook
                              @somasimple

                              "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                              “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                              “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                              "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                              "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                I was never taught any of these "lines" in chiro school. Where much of "the bullxxxx" is taught is in these marketing seminars that some chiros pay big bucks to attend. These practice management seminars. They go as far as training your staff to be part of the "practice building", providing the videos and brochures, etc.

                                What has baffled me for years is this. I practice in a very wealthy community. There are a number of "high volume", "subluxation-based", "bring your children 'cause birth is the original trauma to your spine" kind of chiros. I can't figure out why the corporate executives, and other highly educated individuals are the greatest users of these types of chiros. I would think they would be smarter than that.
                                Is it posh? Between brunch at the country club and golf lessons they see their chiropractor? I don't know.

                                Some of these clinics look like country clubs. Juice bars, leather couches, indoor landscaping, fireplaces burning, plasma TV's dispensing "education".

                                I have lost many patients to this type of chiro because of the patients expectations based on past experiences. The maintenaince care I sell to my patients is self manteniance, but many would rather have someone else "help" them. "Just lay down and let me restore your innate".

                                Dianne,

                                The reason some of these lines sound scripted is because they are. These are lines I've heared at these seminars. (I went to one as a recent grad. Never again.)

                                Even though our regulatory body has rules against these "questionable practices" that are violated regularly. Punishments are laid out via fines and suspensions but they don't deter much at all.

                                I think I hate the crap that goes on more than Dianne does, because it is more personal to me, being in the profession. But I don't agree that dropping a nuclear bomb on the entire profession is the way to go to stop it.

                                The DC doing these things won't be harmed very much by removing accrediation from colleges, or removing them as regulated professionals. Most of them have cash practices and a strong cult following, I mean patient base, and they will continue to thrive as an unregulated profession like reflexology or iridology or reiki, etc..

                                It will hurt guys like me however.

                                Not finished my thought but more later.

                                Comment

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