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  • #61
    how do I know which tissue is the pain generator?
    Um, the answer to that would be, nerve tissue.
    Diane
    www.dermoneuromodulation.com
    SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
    HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
    Neurotonics PT Teamblog
    Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
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    @dfjpt
    SomaSimple on Facebook
    @somasimple

    "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

    “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

    “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

    "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

    "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

    Comment


    • #62
      Hello =Marc=,
      In one of the deleted posts I looked carefully through all the ... ahem... "messages" you sent me, to find this:
      I wrote,
      Let's start here: What is the point of HVLA manipulation? To relax muscles?
      Then you wrote,
      Neuromodulation of pain.
      I'd like an explanation of how you see that happening.
      Diane
      www.dermoneuromodulation.com
      SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
      HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
      Neurotonics PT Teamblog
      Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
      Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
      @PainPhysiosCan
      WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
      @WCPTPTPN
      Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

      @dfjpt
      SomaSimple on Facebook
      @somasimple

      "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

      “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

      “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

      "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

      "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

      Comment


      • #63
        Barrett:

        Who said they ever got any pain relief?
        Ok. I've seen it. Many times. The evidence is out there too. SMT relieves pain. Still, you haven't addressed my question:

        Problem is, how do I know which tissue is the pain generator? If I don't know SPECIFICALLY what tissue is causing their pain than how can I SPECIFICALLY tell them the mechanism of their relief?
        I haven't seen anyone skate around that good since Wayne Gretzky! (I.e. you are ducking my question)

        Diane:

        Um, the answer to that would be, nerve tissue.
        So nerve tissue is the only tissue that can generate pain? Is that your final answer?

        To answer your question regarding an explaination how HVLA can modulate pain, please read the attached article.
        Attached Files

        Comment


        • #64
          Marc, specifically which tissues do you think are capable ofgenerating pain?

          I've seen lots of patients who have undergone countless manipulations for pain, yet they still have their pain. How come manipulation did not relieve their pain?

          Eric
          Eric Matheson, PT

          Comment


          • #65
            EB, please answer Eric's question, and please think before you type.
            Diane
            www.dermoneuromodulation.com
            SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
            HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
            Neurotonics PT Teamblog
            Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
            Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
            @PainPhysiosCan
            WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
            @WCPTPTPN
            Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

            @dfjpt
            SomaSimple on Facebook
            @somasimple

            "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

            “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

            “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

            "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

            "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

            Comment


            • #66
              I presume that the primary mechanism for pain relief secondary to pain of mechanical origin is movement in the correct direction. Didn't you know that already?
              Barrett L. Dorko

              Comment


              • #67
                Hi Marc,

                Bernard posted that paper in the manipulation solution thread back in February. This was my post about it back then.

                Are you putting this forward as the best explanation of SMT that we have at this time? I'll try to take more time with it if you feel this is "the state of the state".
                Last edited by Jon Newman; 06-11-2006, 02:35 AM.
                "I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris

                Comment


                • #68
                  EB, that 15-page paper says precisely nothing. Now, what are some pain generating tissues besides neural tissue??

                  The truth is, generating more studies like this, and you posting them here, doesn't constitute much in the way of evidence. Quantities of papers that say, "Hmm, well we still don't know.. must have something to do with neurophysiology.. too bad the nerves we want to study are so deep.. more studies are needed.. " aren't worth the powder to shoot a rat. Really.

                  Here's a sifter for you, to use for any study:
                  1. Who wrote the paper?
                  2. Why did they write the paper?
                  3. Who paid them to write the paper?
                  4. How will the paper make the world a better place?
                  Last edited by Diane; 06-11-2006, 02:40 AM.
                  Diane
                  www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                  SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                  HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                  Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                  Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                  Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                  @PainPhysiosCan
                  WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                  @WCPTPTPN
                  Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                  @dfjpt
                  SomaSimple on Facebook
                  @somasimple

                  "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                  “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                  “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                  "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                  "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Eric

                    I've seen lots of patients who have undergone countless manipulations for pain, yet they still have their pain. How come manipulation did not relieve their pain?
                    Because SMT is not a cure-all approach. It's not a magic bullet. Maybe because SMT wasn't a valid option to treat their pain, depending on the diagnosis and chronicity. Maybe the patient had a lot of psychosocial issues which perpetuates the pain cycle or other confounding factors. Maybe the pain is not organic or mechanical. If I had all the answers Eric, I would have a 100% success rate with all my patients.

                    There are tons of failed back cases out there, that used TONS of approaches whether it was SMT, physiotherapy, rehabilitation, psychological, surgical, education, etc. No treatment approach will ever have 100% success because there is too much variance in humans, biological, emotional, psychosocial, anatomical and otherwise.

                    Why should SMT be held to a HIGHER standard than the rest of the approaches?

                    Regarding pain generators, are you saying that the neural tissue is the only source of nociception? For the record, I don't believe it is.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      EB, that 15-page paper says precisely nothing
                      You forgot to take off your anti-chiropractic glasses off. You must be a speed reader too.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        I read it ages ago. I refreshed my memory by reading page one. The conclusion was pretty much as I stated above. I don't have antichiropractic glasses, I have naked eyes that see everything.
                        Diane
                        www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                        SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                        HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                        Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                        Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                        Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                        @PainPhysiosCan
                        WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                        @WCPTPTPN
                        Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                        @dfjpt
                        SomaSimple on Facebook
                        @somasimple

                        "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                        “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                        “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                        "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                        "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Regarding pain generators, are you saying that the neural tissue is the only source of nociception? For the record, I don't believe it is.
                          You think nociception=pain?
                          Diane
                          www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                          SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                          HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                          Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                          Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                          Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                          @PainPhysiosCan
                          WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                          @WCPTPTPN
                          Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                          @dfjpt
                          SomaSimple on Facebook
                          @somasimple

                          "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                          “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                          “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                          "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                          "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Jon,

                            I wouldn't qualify myself as an expert on this. I haven't looked for any additional sources, and I can't guarantee that I can find more at the moment since I don't have access to the journals as I did as a student. Basically, if you really care to have an answer to your question you can look up Dr. Scott Haldeman who I would say is one of the pre-eminent researchers of SMT who could more easily provide you a better list of references

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Diane

                              You think nociception=pain?
                              No.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                "Nociception is neither sufficient or necessary to generate pain."
                                (Lorimer Moseley, Ron Melzack, Pat Wall, take your pick.)

                                So what the heck DO you think? Why are you being so coy about this?
                                Diane
                                www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                                SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                                HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                                Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                                Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                                Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                                @PainPhysiosCan
                                WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                                @WCPTPTPN
                                Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                                @dfjpt
                                SomaSimple on Facebook
                                @somasimple

                                "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                                “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                                “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                                "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                                "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                                Comment

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