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Ectoderm VS Mesoderm

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Barrett Dorko View Post
    Any thoughts on why the massage therapy community continues to support him to such a large degree?
    Sure. Massage therapists are generally not scientific persons. Another general observation I have made is that most massage therapists are persons seeking their own healing, usually on a psychological level, without realizing their own basic motivation to be in the field. These two facts combine to make a mess of their reasoning and their professional tendencies tend toward methodologies that seem spiritual. Barnes sells it well.
    - Chris
    "The nervous system may well process inputs in terms of available response systems. "
    -Patrick Wall


    • #32
      I look forward to learning more about all these great references. I ordered one of Damasio's books last night.

      As far as the "ideo" thing, I don't think I can expand on my concept of 'thought' and 'idea', but I can expand my concept of what 'ideomotion/ideomotor' mean. If we expand our concept of what specific words mean too much, they will lose their specificity and accurate communication will become impossible. Lots of words have uncertain etymologies that are not consistent with their usage. So, on this, I digress.

      The pain=bad I am referring to is in reference to treatment techniques, not in general. Obviously pain is more often good than bad in its protective qualities. I don't teach clients that pain is bad. I've never seen ideomotion lead someone into extremely painful (damaging) positions. It seems like there is a threshold where the conscious mind of the client will over-ride the process and then movement returns to a more volitional mode.
      - Chris
      "The nervous system may well process inputs in terms of available response systems. "
      -Patrick Wall


      • #33
        I don't want to redirect here, because this is a good discussion.

        I just wanted to address Bernard's concern with "action."

        How about:

        Mesoderm is controlled by ectoderm
        Ectoderm is controlled by context
        Context is controlled by culture/environment.
        Cory Blickenstaff, PT, OCS

        Pain Science and Sensibility Podcast
        Leaps and Bounds Blog
        My youtube channel


        • #34
          One description of action forwarded byGallese and Metzinger is:

          Actions are a specific subset of goal-directed movements: a series of movements that are functionally integrated with a currently active goal representation as leading to a reward constitute an action. Therefore, an action is not isomorphic to a particular movement or specific behavioral pattern, because many different movements can constitute the same goal-directed action. What individuates an action is the set of satisfaction conditions defining the representational content of its goal component
          as leading to a reward plus the special way in which it is causally linked
          to the actual event of overt movement generation. In particular, an action results from a selection process (which may or may not be conscious) and a representation of the system as a whole as standing in a certain relation to a specific goal-state (which is phenomenally represented, e.g. globally available via short-term memory).
          That's not all they have to say about it but if people are interested in more than what I quoted, they can read the whole paper.
          "I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris


          • #35
            most massage therapists are persons seeking their own healing, usually on a psychological level
            This is a fascinating insight.
            Luke Rickards


            • #36
              I have heard of this insight into massage therapists before, anecdotally; it was a group of folk on the ship going down Trevor Sound (Vancouver Is), who had personal experience with MTs and potential MTs. Sort of inner crisis resolution end-goal stuff where the patient is passive and pleasant and the therapist is the active patient...

              Mind you, the same might be said of social workers and some PTs.



              • #37

                I agree especially with your description. I also agree that there are plenty of PTs who approach their work similarly.

                In my opening lecture I always say that "I always had notion that being a therapist would make me a better person, whatever that means" and that coercive care didn't seem to move me in that direction. I feel that we can be transformed by our patients if we are present with them in a certain way and I saw this happen to Bobath while watching her work in '73.

                I still feel that being present with others in the throes of discomfort can be remarkably good for us if we are interested in gaining insight into human behavior - especially our own. For me, it happened when I stopped moving others and was instead moved by them. Massage therapists often find this a difficult adjustment to make.

                In keeping with the subject of this thread, my personal discovery of the ectoderm in others is what changed me, not my coercion of their mesoderm.
                Barrett L. Dorko


                • #38
                  Diane ,

                  I am just reading the first paper of your paper Neuromodulation , i think i will comment here because it is related .
                  Ectoderm ,who was the first one used this term within our staff ? Does it denote to Nervous System ?



                  • #39
                    It was I, and yes, it denotes nervous system See embryology threads.
                    HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                    Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                    Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                    Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                    WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                    Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

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                    "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                    “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                    “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

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                    "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire


                    • #40
                      Reasoning ?!

                      I will go there trying to find answer/reasoning for that denoation .