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Do Biomechanics Matter?

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  • #46
    Hi Christine!

    I'm curious Ken whether she has been coached in form or is that video a great example of the emergent interaction between the environment, task and the individual mover?
    There are many things at work here. I will demo activities like the goblets, kettles, goat-baggers, etc.

    We would all like to believe that athletes reveal what we consider "correct form" on the basis of the careful instruction and feedback we offer,but as Johnny noted above:

    Weightlifting is a perfect example. You'll see short levered lifters pulling and squatting quite differently than taller, longer levered lifters. Some with heels together, toes out. Others with wide stances and toes straight ahead. You will see consistency amongst them all. Barbells close to body and similar bar paths, but the method for creating those similarities differ.
    I have used this image before, but I like it because it reveals how infants have no problems or discomfort getting into and maintaining these deep squat positions without any coaching or instruction.
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Ken Jakalski; 23-09-2016, 05:39 PM.

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    • #47
      Here's an image from one of our hill sessions. The athletes are wearing Freelap timing devices which record their efforts. (The transmitters are located under the cones at the bottom and the top of the hill.)

      Our veterans always like to run with the guy coming up on the far left because he offers such a great challenge to them. Why would you say he is able to execute these hill reps so effectively?
      Attached Files

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      • #48
        Note in the goblet clip above how she is holding the kettle. Every one of my athlete holds it slightly different. Some hold it handle-up by the horns. Others prefer the handle upside down. Many like to wide their hands over the ball to distribute the weight more comfortably.

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        • #49
          Here's another short slo-mo clip of one of our guys doing our version of the single leg, split-leg deadlift. Other athletes will do this with just one dumbbell or kettle. I like to have my athletes finish to a thigh parallel position. It requires them to remain balanced a little longer.
          Attached Files

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          • #50
            I really like what Matt noted above:

            1. Is it safe?
            2. Is it doing the job that it was intended to do?


            In working with my population of athletes, these two questions are essential. I always tell colleagues that I have nothing against any other lift. I like them all, but what I choose to end up doing is based my own comfort level with how well they pass Matt's "test" questions.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Ken Jakalski View Post
              Here's an image from one of our hill sessions. The athletes are wearing Freelap timing devices which record their efforts. (The transmitters are located under the cones at the bottom and the top of the hill.)

              Our veterans always like to run with the guy coming up on the far left because he offers such a great challenge to them. Why would you say he is able to execute these hill reps so effectively?

              ...but he pronates horribly and must receive input from a physiotherapist and a podiatrist asap - otherwise he is going to get terribly, terribly injured ...

              Andy
              (an individual of low, sarcastic wit)
              Last edited by amacs; 23-09-2016, 08:40 PM.
              "Here is Edward Bear coming downstairs now, bump, bump, bump, on the back of his head behind Christopher Robin. It is, as far as he knows, the only way of coming downstairs, but sometimes he feels that there is another way, if only he could stop bumping for a moment and think of it." A.A. Milne

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              • #52
                You're spot on! I seriously believe that if my team were to go in for an assessment, the majority of them would be told that they have muscular imbalances, postural problems, and, core weaknesses that if not dealt with, will result in injury. Yet these same evaluators have no idea what we do in training.

                One who goes in regularly for chiropractic adjustment to maintain her pain free running was recently told her knee was "all torn up," and that needed she needed further treatment. I didn't ask what the treatment involved, or what was meant by all torn up.

                As Mel Siff noted several years ago, and I think this was one of the threads that Barrett even responded to in a similar fashion:

                "A survey of the literature (some of which have been cited in past letters) shows that there is no scientific evidence that back injuries are a direct result of so-called muscle balances or faulty abdominal activation.

                The evidence is that these injuries tend to relate far more strongly to inefficient exercise technique, overtraining (overuse or overload), fatigue and accidents.

                For a start, nobody even knows exactly what optimal muscle "balance" is supposed to be at any given stage of a dynamic sporting movement, especially since research has shown that the same muscles are not necessarily even recruited in the same manner with each execution of that movement. Previous posts have emphasized the fact that, while there may be an optimal movement pattern for the external actions of the body, there is no such optimal and precisely reproduced pattern for the neurons and the muscles controlling the movement."

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                • #53
                  You're spot on! I seriously believe that if my team were to go in for an assessment, the majority of them would be told that they have muscular imbalances, postural problems, and, core weaknesses that if not dealt with, will result in injury. Yet these same evaluators have no idea what we do in training
                  I recently discussed with a colleague how monumentally arrogant it can be for a physio to tell a runner to change how they run based solely on clinic observation and without reference to the coach who may have been working with the same athlete for years.

                  It doesn't matter if it isn't pretty.

                  Sometimes an injury can dictate changing things but that should be negotiated.

                  A.
                  "Here is Edward Bear coming downstairs now, bump, bump, bump, on the back of his head behind Christopher Robin. It is, as far as he knows, the only way of coming downstairs, but sometimes he feels that there is another way, if only he could stop bumping for a moment and think of it." A.A. Milne

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                  • #54
                    Today in our clinic meeting we went over core stability exercises. A lot of it was focused on how to cue the patient to contract their transverse abdominis and also how to maintain that contraction with particular movements of the extremities. Progressions were talked about. A lot of it was quite hard to do. How do we get 80 year old Ethel with low back pain to contract their TA? Does it even matter?

                    The transverse abdominis along with the multifidi are talked about routinely as the keys to "core stability". How much core stability do we actually need? How does it relate to pain? Why are we training these muscles in rigid positions? When we move, we don't keep our trunks rigid.

                    One therapist always tell me if the pain is bilateral in the extremities you always have to look at their core strength. I watched as he and his student worked with one of my patients with bilateral knee OA. She doesn't have any pain, she's just really weak and needs to get stronger and has already responded pretty well to a general strengthening program of her LE. Meanwhile, they taught her "how to engage her core" because I guess they determined that was missing from my program. Is teaching her how to engage her TA really that important?
                    Last edited by FrustratedNewGrad; 29-09-2016, 06:00 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Ken Jakalski View Post
                      Hi Christine!



                      There are many things at work here. I will demo activities like the goblets, kettles, goat-baggers, etc.

                      We would all like to believe that athletes reveal what we consider "correct form" on the basis of the careful instruction and feedback we offer,but as Johnny noted above:



                      I have used this image before, but I like it because it reveals how infants have no problems or discomfort getting into and maintaining these deep squat positions without any coaching or instruction.
                      Infants tend to have great mobility, developing the stability to squat as they go. Adults (on average) tend to be the opposite. Poor/deficient mobility that has developed over years (tissue adaptation to imposed [lack] of demands).

                      The also have large heads relative to their body mass, providing a great counterweight.

                      You can get people to change their form by showing their body how to do so, rather than telling them verbally.

                      This can be in the form of external cues, set up or load placement etc.
                      Registered osteopath
                      Registered personal trainer
                      http://twitter.com/NickEfthimiou

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by FrustratedNewGrad View Post
                        Today in our clinic meeting we went over core stability exercises. A lot of it was focused on how to cue the patient to contract their transverse abdominis and also how to maintain that contraction with particular movements of the extremities. Progressions were talked about. A lot of it was quite hard to do. How do we get 80 year old Ethel with low back pain to contract their TA? Does it even matter?

                        The transverse abdominis along with the multifidi are talked about routinely as the keys to "core stability". How much core stability do we actually need? How does it relate to pain? Why are we training these muscles in rigid positions? When we move, we don't keep our trunks rigid.

                        One therapist always tell me if the pain is bilateral in the extremities you always have to look at their core strength. I watched as he and his student worked with one of my patients with bilateral knee OA. She doesn't have any pain, she's just really weak and needs to get stronger and has already responded pretty well to a general strengthening program of her LE. Meanwhile, they taught her "how to engage her core" because I guess they determined that was missing from my program. Is teaching her how to engage her TA really that important?
                        Greg Lehman tweeted something about core training the other day.

                        The original tweet said:

                        "Always work out your core. You need it for pretty much everything:"

                        Greg's comment:

                        "If you need it for everything then by doing everything you naturally train your core"

                        Then again, reasoning isn't high on most people's agenda.
                        Registered osteopath
                        Registered personal trainer
                        http://twitter.com/NickEfthimiou

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by FrustratedNewGrad View Post
                          Today in our clinic meeting we went over core stability exercises. A lot of it was focused on how to cue the patient to contract their transverse abdominis and also how to maintain that contraction with particular movements of the extremities. Progressions were talked about. A lot of it was quite hard to do. How do we get 80 year old Ethel with low back pain to contract their TA? Does it even matter?

                          The transverse abdominis along with the multifidi are talked about routinely as the keys to "core stability". How much core stability do we actually need? How does it relate to pain? Why are we training these muscles in rigid positions? When we move, we don't keep our trunks rigid.

                          One therapist always tell me if the pain is bilateral in the extremities you always have to look at their core strength. I watched as he and his student worked with one of my patients with bilateral knee OA. She doesn't have any pain, she's just really weak and needs to get stronger and has already responded pretty well to a general strengthening program of her LE. Meanwhile, they taught her "how to engage her core" because I guess they determined that was missing from my program. Is teaching her how to engage her TA really that important?
                          http://www.alexandertechnique-runnin...y-Lederman.pdf

                          http://sirpauk.com/images/PDF/Lederman.pdf

                          I think this will help piss you off more...enjoy!
                          I may not be as smart as most people, but I'm sure as hell not as dumb....
                          "The views expressed here are my own and do not reflect the views of my employer."

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                          • #58
                            Johnny,

                            Perhaps you should be asking your colleagues if they could read more.

                            Of course, you know not to do this as Lewis Black does.

                            He has created a persona he employs on the stage, where he's made a good living. As therapists, we're better off silent.

                            Or writing.
                            Barrett L. Dorko

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Barrett Dorko View Post
                              Johnny,

                              Perhaps you should be asking your colleagues if they could read more.

                              Of course, you know not to do this as Lewis Black does.

                              He has created a persona he employs on the stage, where he's made a good living. As therapists, we're better off silent.

                              Or writing.
                              If I dont do what they do then I'm just a new grad who doesn't know what he's doing. Especially when we share patients and that therapist changes my exercises because I'm not addressing the core.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by FrustratedNewGrad View Post
                                If I dont do what they do then I'm just a new grad who doesn't know what he's doing. Especially when we share patients and that therapist changes my exercises because I'm not addressing the core.

                                Tough place to be. Interesting but unpleasant how experience works in this situation - remember this and when you find yourself longer in the tooth and teaching new grads yourself you treat them with humility and listen to them - at least then you are gaining something from the experience if not what you would like.

                                ANdy
                                "Here is Edward Bear coming downstairs now, bump, bump, bump, on the back of his head behind Christopher Robin. It is, as far as he knows, the only way of coming downstairs, but sometimes he feels that there is another way, if only he could stop bumping for a moment and think of it." A.A. Milne

                                Comment

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