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  • CT Simple Contact: The Great Conversation

    per Barrett's request,

    So, to start, please cite any and all peer-reviewed journal citations on Simple Contact. We can all cite theories to support our work, but please post only entries which evaluate Simple Contact.

    Walt
    Last edited by bernard; 19-01-2006, 07:20 AM. Reason: "Sticked" the thread

  • #2
    Easy-There aren't any.

    All I've ever proposed is that the theory is clear and supported by all sorts of research. It has been discussed intricately for six years in archived threads on this site.

    You really don't get this yet?
    Barrett L. Dorko

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi Walt,

      This is an interesting start considering that not once have you been asked to cite literature on MFR specifically or on it's outcomes. You have only been asked for basic science literature that plausibly supports the theory.
      We can all cite theories to support our work
      Well, not all of us hey, as witnessed in the other great conversation.

      Luke
      Luke Rickards
      Osteopath

      Comment


      • #4
        There have been dozens of great conversations, deconstructions even, threads galore on Simple Contact. Back to the other thread Walt... face the music.
        Diane
        www.dermoneuromodulation.com
        SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
        HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
        Neurotonics PT Teamblog
        Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
        Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
        @PainPhysiosCan
        WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
        @WCPTPTPN
        Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

        @dfjpt
        SomaSimple on Facebook
        @somasimple

        "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

        “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

        “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

        "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

        "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

        Comment


        • #5
          Barrett -

          please explain to me the leap you have made from the ideomotor effect or ideomotion to physical therapy. This is some of the research that I found:

          R. Hyman writes (http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery...ideomotor.html)
          Although the effects of ideomotor action have been understood for at least 150 years, the phenomenon remains surprisingly unknown, even to scientists. To conclude, the following are some of the psychological features that characterize nearly all the systems and schemes that have bases in ideomotor action…. The impetus arises from one's own subtle and unperceived expectations. Elaborate, grandiose theories are then devised to explain the observed effects.
          In reading Hyman's report it appeared to be written to debunk a devise that was being used by Chiropractors in Oregon and infact stating that all they were doing was utilizing a phenomenon that is used to substantiate hypnosis or dowsing rods. You have used the first part of this quote in your writings so are you using "gradiose theroies" to explain simple contact?

          From the James Randi educational series in regards to the ideomotor effect (http://www.randi.org/encyclopedia/id...%20effect.html)
          In all these events, nothing in the way of information is revealed to the operator except what he already knows. The effect is very powerful with some personalities, and no amount of evidence will disabuse believers in the magical nature of the phenomenon.
          Sounds like it works if people believe you and is perpetuated by those that believe you.

          From http://www.skeptics.org.uk/article.p...tor_effect.php
          The ideomotor effect is a classic example of how we can be fooled by our senses and ourselves. Many people believe in things because they have experienced them for themselves; they trust in the perceived infallibility of their senses.
          Are you fooling your patients in believing they are better? Do you show them an area of non pain and then let them believe they have no pain at all?

          From; http://www.insidepulse.com/articles/45505
          Knowledge of the ideomotor effect seems to decrease it effectiveness. It might be that the scaffolding tumbles when we are finally able to see it. (As was the case for Elijah Snow and his memory blocks.)
          Interesting

          When I looked at the references that others on the chat posted I became even more curious because everything was based in phsychology and not physical medicine. There were even some mention of ideomotion explaining a type of painting or writing where the artist isn't aware of what they are doing and that they are actually projecting their subconscious thoughts on the paper. Primarly it discussed how facilitators influence others, primarly facilitators for autistic patients that utilize assistive technology. Nothing regarding how it relates to helping people reduce their pain or any conscepts of pain managemnt/chronic pain.

          I spoke to a consilor friend of mine (also a hypnotherapist) and she did here of ideomotion and the ideomotor effect. She stated it is a principal that is used primarly in visulazation therapy as well as hypnotherapy and couldn't understand why a PT would be utilizing this concept.

          The main question I have releates to how you utilize a concept in phychology that is used to describe a manipulative/suggestive form of activity to a therapy that helps people reduce their pain as a PT. The only thing I can come up with is that you are just defining intention but even that is a stretch.

          Dave

          Comment


          • #6
            Dave, Dave...

            How are you able to separate psychology from brain processes?
            Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
            We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

            Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
            If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
            bernard

            Comment


            • #7
              Dave...

              It CANNOT be done - you are just too Cartesian!!

              Nari

              Comment


              • #8
                A quick read of Damasio and you'll learn all about "nonconscious" Dave.
                Diane
                www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                @PainPhysiosCan
                WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                @WCPTPTPN
                Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                @dfjpt
                SomaSimple on Facebook
                @somasimple

                "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                Comment


                • #9
                  You might want to think about this for a while too -
                  "Whenever a movement unhesitatingly and immediately follows upon the idea of it, we have ideomotor action. (This is not a curiosity), but simply the normal process...and we may lay it down for certain that every mental representation of a movement awakens to some degree the actual movement which is its object; and awakens it in a maximum degree whenever it is not kept from so doing by an antagonistic representation present simultaneously to the mind."
                  This has repercussions that are not limited psychology, but are relevant to everything we do.

                  Luke
                  Luke Rickards
                  Osteopath

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Dave,

                    You understand that when pain has a mechanical origin (no, this does not necessarily preclude the other two origins) that movement will be necessary to resolve it, don't you?

                    Do you understand that not all movements are alike or have the same origin and purpose?

                    Do you understand that ideomotion not only expresses us but also moves us toward comfort i.e. a reduction in mechanical deformation?

                    Do you understand the consequences of not being permitted to move instinctively toward comfort?

                    Do you understand the importance of instinctive behavior and the consequences of its suppression?

                    As Joey Tribiano (on Friends) says, "This isn't rocket surgery."
                    Last edited by Barrett Dorko; 12-01-2006, 02:36 PM.
                    Barrett L. Dorko

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Barrett, where is the research on Simple Contact?

                      Barrett,
                      I've read much of what you have said on ideomotor action and it's correlation with Simple Contact. Why haven't you done any studies on Simple Contact. It is confusing for the public, as there seems to be no peer-reviewed studies on Simple Contact. Sure, ideomotor action appears to be a part of your work, but where is the research on Simple Contact? Diane, on the Myofascial Release thread, ridiculed MFR practitioners for providing a:
                      pathetic attempt to garner respectibility because MFR gets mentioned albeit feebly in PubMed
                      So, with no mention in PubMed, where does that leave Simple Contact. Unlike the rest of the folks here on these threads, I have not ever attacked Simple Contact or its efficacy, despite any research or the lack of any of the dreaded patient testimonials that you all so dislike.

                      So, Barrett, where is the proof?

                      Walt

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Walt,

                        You seem not to understand something basic about my teaching. It is that I use the term "Simple Contact" to describe a way of communicating with others that enhances their awareness of their already onging processes. Manually, it's little different than taking another's pulse. What's to prove?

                        What you want to question is whether or not movement is necessary to reduce pain from mechanical deformation. Of course, we already know this is true.

                        You might want to question whether or not an abnormal neurodynamic would account for the symptoms and dysfunction I propose to look for and treat. Fortunately (for me), I have several decades of research within the neurobiologic revolution to support what I say.

                        You might want to question the efficacy of active, instinctive motion to relieve pain, but no less an expert than Patrick Wall states unequivocally that instinctive motion is the necessary, final stage of movement in his "consumatory act" needed to "terminate the need state produced by painful signals."

                        This is how I present my reasoning and method. I make no effort to "prove" anything-I only work to make sense of things and to treat patients in a manner that falls within the confines of my practice act.

                        For all I know, the term "Simple Contact" will disappear one day-I couldn't care less. I only came up with it after reading some stuff long ago because I needed to call what I did something.

                        All I do is read and think and write and practice. I haven't invented anything and I own nothing. It would be hard to take that away from me, wouldn't it?
                        Last edited by Barrett Dorko; 13-01-2006, 04:00 AM.
                        Barrett L. Dorko

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Barrett,
                          Thanks for the explanation of your work, quite good. You presented your reasoning and logic quite clearly. I have presented what I am able about the reasoning and method behind MFR, in the best way I could. If we can accept these two views as equal, what you said in one statement conflicts me:

                          This is how I present my reasoning and method. I make no effort to "prove" anything-I only work to make sense of things and to treat patients in a manner that falls within the confines of my practice act.
                          I'm doing the same. I, too, only work to make sense of things, every day and moment that I treat. I am treating patients within the confines of my prqactice act. You state your case for your method of treatment as making no effort to prove anything. Neither do I. If there is some common ground between us, Barrett, it is these beliefs. I believe that you are genuine in what you said above, and I hope that you feel I am the same.

                          I really do juggle, though badly,
                          Walt

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            You say you make no effort to prove anything yet have insisted several times here that I do so. This makes no sense.

                            No, I do not accept that our views are "equal" and will not repeat why I think so. That issue has been covered.
                            Barrett L. Dorko

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Twisting into the depths

                              Barrett,

                              If you are saying you make no effort to prove anything in your therapy, I was agreeing, as I do the same. If you are saying that you make no effort to prove anything in regards to others, I wholeheartedly disagree with you. (Just look at your career of writing.) What you said makes no sense.

                              No, I do not accept that our views are "equal"
                              It must be lonely out there.

                              Walt

                              Comment

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