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  • #46
    Dave,

    It as I mentioned before, it appears that your reading has been limited to topical examples of ideomotion. Can you please explain how you think smiling, frowning, yawning, and laughing might fit into the narrow definition of ideomotion that you have developed? Can someone make you laugh, or do they simply provide the right idea and environment conducive to expression?

    Have you ever been drifting through dreamland on your way to sleep and been suddenly jolted awake by your body shuddering as you hit the ground from a fall, or making a full golf swing, or attempting to jump... or doing whatever it is you where dreaming of at time? Did someone facilitate this movement in you or did it simply come from the idea of it?

    Like I said, there are many ideas (conscious and subconscious) that have movement as their object.

    Luke
    Luke Rickards
    Osteopath

    Comment


    • #47
      Luke posted this fascinating article in the "Imagination" thread. I think it is worth reposting here as it offers some interesting points of contemplation relevant to the discussion.

      http://www.bbsonline.org/documents/a...jeannerod.html

      (I couldn't figure out how to make it a PDF but there is one available in the aforementioned thread)

      Also worth considering is this excellent essay I learned about from Ian Stevens.
      Attached Files
      Last edited by Jon Newman; 21-01-2006, 01:56 AM.
      "I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris

      Comment


      • #48
        Jon,

        I made a pdf version with Open Office =>
        Attached Files
        Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
        We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

        Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
        If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
        bernard

        Comment


        • #49
          Interesting:
          Any study dealing with motor behaviour must take into account the fact that the overt aspect (the movement) is only part of the entire phenomenon. The hidden part (the representation) exists in its own right.
          Also interesting:
          The constructivist viewpoint asserts that the brain produces awareness from a complex array of massively parallel processes (Mandler and Nakamura,1987; Marcel, 1983). This applies readily to the question of emotion and pain. The constructivist assumes that the brain deals, not with reality itself, but with an internal, autonomous representation of reality that it builds and revises from moment to moment, using sensory information and networks of association in memory. Subjective reality undergoes constant revision (self-organization), as it includes sensory information, emotion, ratiocination and other aspects of cognition. Furthermore, constructed reality always has a point of view. The point of view is each individual’s sense of self.
          Last edited by Diane; 21-01-2006, 07:23 AM.
          Diane
          www.dermoneuromodulation.com
          SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
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          @PainPhysiosCan
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          @WCPTPTPN
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          @dfjpt
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          "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

          “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

          “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

          "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

          "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

          Comment


          • #50
            Luke -

            Can you please explain how you think smiling, frowning, yawning, and laughing might fit into the narrow definition of ideomotion that you have developed?
            Smiling and frowning I would catergeroize as conditioned or learned responses or even straight voulntary actions (at least in adults). Yawning, lets face it even popular TV has attempted to prove that yawning always occurs when someone else yawns and couldn't do it (see mythbusters TV program on the discovery Channel). Seriously the only thing I have see or read on yawning (granted I don't look for it) is that yawning is a result of the brain looking for more O2. As for laughing - see smiling or frowning

            Can someone make you laugh, or do they simply provide the right idea and environment conducive to expression?
            I'm more inclined to let Pavlaw and his dogs take this one

            As for the narrow scope of ideomotion, I think that is what I started with based on the definitions on the research you told me to look at and the research that I found. I think the definition of ideomotion is pretty specific to certain actions and is used to explain them. This is why I have a difficult time with how everyone seems to be using the term.

            John -

            looked at the first article and although it was interesting I'm not sure if you are infering that ideomotor apraxia is what is treated by ideomotion?

            Dave

            P.S. Thanks for confirming that you have taken Barrett's courses. I just wanted to make sure because I'm sure everyone can agree that I'm still asking about the fundimentals for ideomotion and the use of it with SC, I wouldn't want to deal with people diluting Barrett's work on this web site. (probably the reason why I'm a little disapointed that you haven't gotten in on this Barrett :cry: )

            Comment


            • #51
              Farwell for now

              Life is getting alittle hetic lately so I don't think I'll have time to respond for a while so I wanted to just sum up my part in this discussion for now (I'll try to at least read posts until I can respond)

              I still don't think anyone has given me enough of a definition as to how ideomotion is the core of SC and backed it up with research citations, at least not without broadening it's originial definition - still no citations for that either. I have done some thinking about ideomotion, it's definition and how it could be utilized and I feel comfortable with seeing how, in a limited sense, it is utlized in my treatments. If I traction a person's leg caudly it is ideomiton if the patient continues to move into that direction but once the person's leg moves into abbduction/adduction or flextion/extension it is no longer ideomotion and it is a natural movement.

              the bottom line is that I can't see how you can treat someone souly with ideomotion but I can see how you might initiate a treatment session with it. Maybe one day I'll take Barrett's course and finally get an answer from him, until then thank you to everyone for your attempts at answering my question.

              Dave

              Comment


              • #52
                John -

                looked at the first article and although it was interesting I'm not sure if you are infering that ideomotor apraxia is what is treated by ideomotion?
                No.

                I would like to confirm that (you) have taken (Barrett's) course
                Yes.

                You can get Spitz's book for 14.95. Not bad.
                "I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris

                Comment


                • #53
                  You've decided to define ideomotion in your own way. Why you think you know more about it than those who have been describing and studying it since 1852 is beyond me.

                  Wall's description of the third stage of instinctive response to painful sensation may mean nothing to you, but it's a perfectly reasonable explanation for the unconsciously generated motion (ideomotion) we see. No magical "forces," no biologically implausible action by inert tissue, no channeling the spirits of ancients warriors, no power animals anywhere.

                  Perhaps the absence of all this is too boring for some, but the intricate nature of the neuroscience behind it is enough for me.

                  Some dowsers don't want it known that they're the one moving the rod. Shown that this is always the case they'll continue to believe otherwise because their story is simply better than the one that's obviously true.
                  Barrett L. Dorko

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Dave

                    Pavlov and his dogs are ancient history, and are no longer useful to interpret what is going on in the brain. Descartes was a great fellow, but he was wrong with some of his conclusions.

                    Read Spitz, and look at what has happened with physiology, particularly neurophysiology over the last 10 years.
                    Until you learn some basic details on responses, emotions and other aspects - you will not understand ideomotion, I'm afraid.

                    Hope your hectic weeks settle down.

                    Nari

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Hi All,

                      I haven't been trained to Simple Contact and I must say that Barrett and I, were quite ennemies, two years ago. Now, open minded have worked for the best and differences are still present but a mutual comprehension exists.

                      It took, three or four months to understand the point of view of Barrett and now, there is no more difficulty. Damasio but surely, Diane and Nari, helped me a lot.

                      Originally posted by Dave Vollmers
                      Smiling and frowning I would catergeroize as conditioned or learned responses or even straight voulntary actions (at least in adults).
                      Dave,
                      Such assertion is a full disappointment for all readers and enlightens us at the deep chasm where you're trapped. That is at 20,000 light years distance from actual knowledge.

                      Where have you been? :cry:
                      Last edited by bernard; 23-01-2006, 07:19 AM.
                      Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
                      We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

                      Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
                      If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
                      bernard

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        the only thing I have see or read on yawning (granted I don't look for it) is that yawning is a result of the brain looking for more O2

                        Lehmann, H. Yawning: A Homeostatic Reflex and Its Psychological Significance. Bulletin of the Menninger Clinic, 1979, 43(2), 123-136.
                        Man's psychological reasons for yawning are of equal, if not greater, importance than the physiological causes. While real yawning cannot be produced by direct voluntary impulses, it is an ideomotor action: easily elicited by autosuggestion, by mental preoccupation with yawning, and by unconscious imitation.
                        As I have said, there are many pathways for ideomotor expression, not just imitation. It functions to express us and correct us (homeostasis). But you can continue create your own definitions if you like.
                        Last edited by Luke Rickards; 23-01-2006, 11:16 AM.
                        Luke Rickards
                        Osteopath

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Dave,

                          Thanks for confirming that you have taken Barrett's courses. I just wanted to make sure because I'm sure everyone can agree that I'm still asking about the fundimentals for ideomotion and the use of it with SC,
                          It seems to me that the fundamentals of ideomotion have and are still very well documented and the use of it with SC does make scientific sense. However, I checked my fascia last night and even this morning and I don't recall any repressed emotions.

                          I am the type of PT that will try most anything for my patients and if I know of someone that does Craniosacral or Barnes Myofascial release, why not have those patients try it? However, the underpinnings of MFR have way too many holes to hold any scientific water. and in a rehab/medical world that is evidence-based ( a term in my estimation that is losing some of its true definition), scientific reasoning intrinsically prevails without any effort.

                          Eddy

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Eddy,

                            I see that you are still under my spell.

                            Good to know.
                            Barrett L. Dorko

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Barrett,

                              Eddy,

                              I see that you are still under my spell.

                              Good to know.
                              Yes, YOU WIZARD, YOU. I couldn't help it but bleat it.

                              Eddy

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                nice web site about personal beliefs, some good science, and a lot of ego.
                                the anti fascial bias is pure ego.
                                fascial therapy and emotional release, aka Rolfing and patients emotional release does occur...
                                i know i am a Rolfer.
                                i do not take a Upleder approach of somtaemotional release (what a bunch of hogwash).
                                still if a emotional release happens for the patient in the context of the Rolf postural recipe, then it happens.
                                it is not look for, or wished for, but it is healing for the patient.

                                tissue does hold memory.
                                people are tissue, they are memory, and mainly water.
                                when you die, your water goes away and so do your memories.

                                it has been nice looking around here, but way to much ego.

                                good luck. and thanks for the memories.

                                you bunch of tensegrity water bags of emotional memory...with way too much ego.

                                Comment

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