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  • #31
    Originally posted by Barrett Dorko
    As Joey Tribiano (on Friends) says, "This isn't rocket surgery."
    isn't it joey tribiani? (in france it is...)

    it is nothing to do with the matter of the thread

    don't look for me i'm already somewhere else
    ------------------------------------------------------
    french physio
    like paediatrics and sports trauma

    Comment


    • #32
      Cedric,

      This is the weird thing that happens with translation. My daugther owns the full DVD Friends' serie and I was amazed that voices (in English) and words were, sometimes so far, from translated.
      Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
      We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

      Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
      If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
      bernard

      Comment


      • #33
        Cedric,

        You're right, it's Tribiani. How about that? The first mistake I've made on this board.

        Dave,

        You're even further off than you were before-which I find impressive because I didn't think that was possible.
        Barrett L. Dorko

        Comment


        • #34
          @BD: so much you know that i ignore....

          @bernard : do you remember luke marchedansleciel on the first french edition of star wars episode4 on cinema?
          + french voices of friends are quite uggly...
          ------------------------------------------------------
          french physio
          like paediatrics and sports trauma

          Comment


          • #35
            Hi Dave,

            I don't understand why you need another definition of ideomotion - it's not that complicated.... "every mental representation of a movement awakens to some degree the actual movement...and awakens it in a maximum degree whenever it is not kept from so doing by an antagonistic representation present simultaneously to the mind." Keep in mind that this process is unconscious and instinctive - ideas aren't limited to the conscious voice in your head.

            We have lots of ideas about movement. Some of them express what we would like to happen, (eg watch a child's head follow the spaceship while they play video games, or like a craniosacral therapist learning to feel the CRI of 12BPM because that is what they are 'meant to feel'), and I suspect that this is what you have been reading about most. Other ideas of movement express how we feel (eg smiling, frowning and yawning are good examples of ideomotion here). Others make help to us more comfortable (eg shifting in your chair).

            The idea that generates movement in SC comes from the patient, not the therapist - you don't hypnotise them. It is a method of communicating, either manually or verbally, that allows the patient to have an idea that is something like "It is safe to move in a way that will lead towards comfort, in way that I'm not usually 'allowed' to move." The antagonistic respresentation relevant to SC comes from a culture that doesn't encourage instinctive movements, whether that culture is met in the street or in the therapy room. It is quite amazing how quickly someone will move instinctively when this antagonistic representation is removed, and equally amazing how quickly someone who refuses to move on physical testing because of pain will move in full ROM when ideomotion is doing the moving.

            You may also need to know a little more about what pain is - it is not a simple sensory experience. Read some of the pain physiology books mentioned.

            Luke
            Last edited by Luke Rickards; 19-01-2006, 12:13 PM.
            Luke Rickards
            Osteopath

            Comment


            • #36
              Am J Physiol. 1999 Jul;277(1 Pt 2):H261-7. Related Articles, Links
              Even slight movements disturb analysis of cardiovascular dynamics.

              Fortrat JO, Formet C, Frutoso J, Gharib C.

              Laboratoire de Physiologie de l'Environnement, Faculte de Medecine Lyon Grange-Blanche, 69373 Lyon Cedex 08, France.

              We hypothesized that spontaneous movements (postural adjustments and ideomotion) disturb analysis of heart rate and blood pressure variability and could explain the discrepancy between studies. We measured R-R intervals and systolic blood pressure in nine healthy sitting subjects during three protocols: 1) no movement allowed, 2) movements allowed but not standing, 3) movements and standing allowed. Heart rate and blood pressure were not altered by movements. Movements with or without standing produced a twofold or greater increase of the overall variability of R-R intervals and of the low-frequency components of spectral analysis of heart rate variability. The spectral exponent beta of heart rate variability (1. 123 at rest) was changed by movements (1.364), and the percentage of fractal noise (79% at rest) was increased by standing (91%, coarse-graining spectral analysis). Spontaneous movements could induce a plateau in the correlation dimensions of heart rate variability, but they changed its nonlinear predictability. We suggest that future studies on short-term cardiovascular variability should control spontaneous movements.

              PMID: 10409205 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
              Attached Files
              Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
              We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

              Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
              If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
              bernard

              Comment


              • #37
                Exp Brain Res. 2005 Nov 17;:1-6 [Epub ahead of print] Related Articles, Links
                Hemispheric sensitivity to body stimuli in simple reaction time.

                Aziz-Zadeh L, Iacoboni M, Zaidel E.

                Department of Psychology, University of California, Los Angeles, CA, USA.

                Previous research indicates that people respond fastest when the motor response is (spatially, functionally, anatomically, or otherwise) congruent to the visual stimulus. This effect, called ideomotor compatibility, is thought to be expressed in motor areas. Congruence occurs when the stimulus and response share some dimensions in their internal representations. If the ideomotor compatibility hypothesis were true, we would expect facilitation when right hand stimuli are presented to the left hemisphere, or left hand stimuli are presented to the right hemisphere. To address this issue, we conducted a simple reaction time experiment with lateralized targets. Participants were instructed to press a button as soon as a target was observed. The target stimulus was a left hand, a right hand, or a neutral control. Each hemisphere showed faster responses to contralateral hand stimuli as compared with ipsilateral hand stimuli, consistent with the ideomotor compatibility hypothesis. The results support an automatic and implicit processing of visual stimuli within motor representations even when no recognition of, or decision about, the stimulus is necessary.

                PMID: 16328286 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
                Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
                We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

                Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
                If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
                bernard

                Comment


                • #38
                  Jon -

                  Just have a couple of minutes before work. I never said SC had anything to do with subluxations, it was only mentioned in the definition of the tourque method (please re-read the post)

                  As for Spitz - I couldn't get a copy to read on line and haven't had a chance to get to the book store but I was able to read some reviews and some tid bits on line. After reading what I could it only makes the waters more cloudy in how you utilize ideomotion. Spitz appears to be talking more about faciliated movement, such as the examples regarding how parents of special needs children (if I remember correctly it was primarly autistic children) subconsciously facilitate thier child's movement on a communication device based on what they want to see their child being able to do and when a child is tested without the parent or asked questions the parents couldn't know the answer to they cannont repoduce the communication.

                  To me this just solidifies the thought that ideomotion is a faciliated or suggested movement and not a "natural" movement that the patient is creating when fear of society, ect are taken away.

                  Eric -

                  The hypothetical results of a tight hamstring are just that hypothetical. those results may or may not occur. Each patient is different. I used it only to illistrate the complexities of symptoms vs the actual cause.

                  As for the comment regarding "not a physical modality" I wasn't refering to SC, I was referring to ideomotion. SC would sound like more of a plausable physical modality if ideomotion was taken out. It is the ideomotion aspect that makes it sound like a suggestive/phsycological form of therapy. Granted all therapy utilizes phsycology to help modivate patients and create thereapeutic repore but unless you are doing cognitive retraining for brain injury or phsyciatric patients I don't see the connection.

                  Barrett -

                  If I'm so way off as you put it, please help me to find the path back.

                  Dave
                  Dave

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Dave Vollmers
                    I think I can agree with the core ideas behind simple contact up to the point of ideomotion because as William James points out it is a movement that follows the idea of that movement. Dave
                    Dave,

                    Ideomotion is pretty much THE core idea of Simple Contact.

                    When is movement not physical? When is movement not psychological? I thought you MFR guys were more holistic than that.


                    Famous question from Patrick Wall:
                    "What are the appropriate MOTOR RESPONSES (which originate in the brain, by the way) to the arrival of pain and injury signals?"

                    In other words, what movement do I need to do to feel better?

                    To me, this is, or ought to be, the central question of physical therapy - at least for pain of mechanical origin.

                    Simple Contact is about recognizing that the body already has an instinctive answer to this question that needs to be expressed. Gentle handling simply facilitates the process.

                    I am conceding, for the most part, that MFR employs a type of handling that also facilitates this process. However, I think it is important to recognize that movement arises in the motor cortex, not in the fascia. Dave, the best explanation for what you observe in the clinic is ideomotor movement. It is not about your magic hands. It is about the movement that arises from within the patient...and they deserve to know that.

                    Others have directed you toward a greater understanding of the neueophysiology of pain. Explore it. You no longer have to rely on explanations that defy science and logic.

                    Nick
                    Nick Matheson, PT
                    Strengthen Your Health

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Nick, brilliant post. Ditto it completely.

                      Dave, at first I had trouble learning what was meant by ideomotor movement. It helped when I learned about the brain from an evolutionary perspective. There's a nice non-verbal movement site that talks about body language and gesture, and their origins in our ancestral forms. Once one gets an idea of movement generated by different and nested brain modules, some more conscious and some less conscious, it's easier to make the leap to accepting the fact that some movement can be entirely non-conscious, instinctive even. Once one accepts that human movement can contain within it non-conscious aspects, one can learn to consciously detach conscious inhibition and allow the non-conscious aspects to take over the movement responsibilities for awhile. The simple contact part helps to de-inhibit non-conscious sourced movement, that's all.

                      It's not magic, you don't need multiple tiered classes, and it's explained already by various branches of existing science.

                      If it's about movement, PT ought to know about it. I think Barrett's motivation is to waken the PT profession and its members to the fact that:
                      1. ideomotor movement exists;
                      2. the knowledge should be taught/be common knowledge in our domain;
                      3. it can explain a lot of what goes on in treatment better than tissue based explanations can/do.
                      Diane
                      www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                      SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                      HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                      Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                      Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                      Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                      @PainPhysiosCan
                      WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                      @WCPTPTPN
                      Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                      @dfjpt
                      SomaSimple on Facebook
                      @somasimple

                      "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                      “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                      “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                      "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                      "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Dave

                        If you think of traditional OT or PT, it is about teaching patients how to move, what to do and what not to do. You evaluate a patient's dysfunctions and sift through, in your mind, what the best approach would be to regain more ROM and/or function. If it doesn't work you try something else - coercion, emphasis on repeating the movements, and maybe try a different approach altogether.
                        With SC, you allow the patient's brain to decide what movement is corrective, what movement it wants to do to correct the problem. It knows, better than you or I or anyone else does.
                        So what is going on here?

                        Control.

                        The patient's brain, CNS, etc, is coming up against another control factor - the therapist - and it may not agree with his/her tactics. So there is conflict.
                        It doesn't happen every time; we all have successes with exerting control over someone else's brain. Happens often, especially with politics, religion, etc etc. But if you can understand the brain's position - ie, total control over its body's function, including thoughts and emotions...you can appreciate that sometimes we set up to create conflict, especially with complex patients.
                        We don't know it, because we are taught to control the patient (nicely, most of the time) and this is based on a Cartesian view that the body is our domain, the brain isn't. That reasoning is a major flaw in many of the techniques currently taught; it ignores the conflict issue between external and internal management.

                        Does this explain why you have a problem with ideomotion? It is what the brain sees as a corrective 'therapy' for the body which isn't functioning as it should. It knows what it's doing - but we miss the boat, fairly often I think.


                        Nari

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Let me reiterate the question

                          To all -

                          There are some great comments but I want to reiterate what I started to ask and maybe restate it another way based on your responses.

                          So far the information of how the brain/CNS works with communiction is fine. As therapists we know that we need to use phsycology to help cultivate a therapeutic report with our patients. All well and good, however my problem isn't with these concepts, it is with the definitions (as proposed by the many sources you have cited and I've read) of ideomotion and it's relationship to natural movement.

                          The question restated (hopefully more direct) is: How can you or the patient for that matter create "natural" uninhibited motion via Ideomotion since Ideomotion is used to describe facilitated movement? If I follow the research that I've read along with the definitions I've seen it would be easy to say that if you believe that ideomotion is "natural" movement than you must agree that facilitated movement by the parents for an autistic child is the natural movement of the child or that the use a weegee (okay I can't spell) board is natural movement. No matter how I read these articles it still hits me that the movement in ideomotion is based on some outside source influencing how a person moves, granted on a subconcious level, but still comes down to control.

                          The only way I can see ideomotion being used in your theories of SC is if you use ideomotion to explain to the patient why they don't move naturally and how others infuence their motions. It would be ideomotion that you would want to correct - not facilitate.

                          Barrett - you teach this everyday and I would have thought you could have written a response that would help me to understand this, therefore I would like to confirm that Nari, Diane, Nick, Eric, Jon, ect have taken your course as well. (just trying to keep the question on track)

                          Dave

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Dave,

                            Sorry to disappoint.
                            Barrett L. Dorko

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              it still hits me that the movement in ideomotion is based on some outside source influencing how a person moves, granted on a subconscious level, but still comes down to control.
                              Kind of, but I think it is the other way around. Subconscious and cultural cues would inhibit natural movement and expression. I think you might be getting too caught up in facilitated communication being related to simple contact. Simple contact utilizes ideomotor movement but simple contact is not facilitated communication. As with the Ouija board, the movement is an expression of the subconscious and it is natural but the danger lies in interpreting what it means.

                              With simple contact, ideomotor movement is encouraged but we certainly don't interpret the experience other than as a means to reduce mechanical deformation. The experience is the patients and we just try to make a comfortable environment. Ideomotor movement utilized in this way would lead to a reduction in mechanical deformation and improve an abnormal neurodynamic. None of this sounds unreasonable to me. And I don't see how simple contact should be criticized based on facilitated communication utilizing ideomotion... smiling can be an example of ideomotor movement also... should we not smile?
                              Christopher Bryhan MPT

                              "You are more likely to learn something by finding surprises in your own behavior then by hearing surprising facts about people in general"
                              Daniel Kahneman - Thinking Fast and Slow

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Dave, re: your question about who has "taken" Barrett's course, several of us, after many years of sniffing each other out and warily sizing up each others' mindsets, on line (in conversations that are still in existance for anyone to read), attended a workshop organized by Eric. We met each other in real time space a few months ago. Interestingly those of us here, who were there, felt like we already knew one another fairly well. Barrett's ideas and his teaching of them were ostensibly the excuse to gather (really, my secret reason for going was to meet all these online people). Each of us took away Barrett's ideas, along with each others', to make more sense of them. None of us were very surprised or baffled by any of the information, given that not much of it was new, nor were many in much disagreement with any of it, given the length on time (years) it had had exposure and given that we'd all been hashing it out many times prior. I still think of myself post Barrett's class as an individual who thinks, not as a "Simple Contactor" or an "Ideomotorista", so I'm afraid either Barrett wasn't interested in starting a cult, or else I'm immune.. (Sorry Barrett, you just don't cut it as a cult leader, and I just don't follow well or for long.)
                                Diane
                                www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                                SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                                HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                                Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                                Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                                Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                                @PainPhysiosCan
                                WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                                @WCPTPTPN
                                Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                                @dfjpt
                                SomaSimple on Facebook
                                @somasimple

                                "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                                “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                                “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                                "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                                "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                                Comment

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