Myofascial Release; The Great Conversation

[Walt Fritz]

Diane,

The point of the comment on disease was that "Lots of things called "arthritis" or labelled "fibromyalgia" by doctors in a hurry". These are the diagnoses that we therapists deal with on a daily basis. These are the diseases that often do not exist in the reality of the world in which we, yes we, treat. So, please do not talk boundaries with me as long as you are able to pass off faulty diagnoses from MD's, etc, just because they are made hastily. These are the issues that we treat. These are the diagnoses that simple do not exist.

Walt

[christophb]

If I may be so bold to ask (bear with me people, I'm a slow learner), What is a fascial voice?

[Nick]

Pia, Walt,

So the merit of MFR..."it works." Bravo!

Now, let's ask why it works?

Then let's ask what parts of it ought to be weeded out to make it more palatable to a discerning practitioner?

Lastly, are there aspects of it that may be irresponsible or potentially harmful for a client? If so, are these necessary for the therapeutic effect?

Nick

[Walt Fritz]

Nari,

Thanks for not calling us fascists! BTW, 4 at last count.

Walt

[Walt Fritz]

Nick,
Elaborate, please on your last question.
Walt

[Nick]

Re: ethics - anyone who makes outrageous claims is subject to rebuttal. Ideologues who attempt to identify themselves with their ideas (or those borrowed from others) certainly open themselves to criticism. Political correctness should stifle no one.

[Diane]

Walt, you skirted around the topic of cancer in your last post to me. It is that particular issue I want you to get a boundary around. Talk about twistings..

Your "fascial voice" concept is simply silly. When sensations spread it's the nervous system voice if anything has a "voice." Pia still hasn't told me, nor have you, how you can talk about stretching fascia when you haven't ruled out skin or the sensitive nervous system as confounding factors in your theory.

I'm starting to think the MFR people are a bunch of looney tunes and agree that some of the assertions are probably criminal.

[Nick]

Walt,

Is it possible that emotional release as encouraged by MFR practitioners causes more harm than good? I have nothing against emotion, but we do need to consider boundaries. Is this aspect of the work essential to its astounding results?

Is a philosophy of "no disease" potentially harmful? One of the biggest concerns of those in the mdeical profession is that otherwise harmless CAM practitioners may obstruct patients from receiving the care they need. Is it truly responsible to promote MFR as a cure for pathology?

I hope this clears things up.

Nick

[Walt Fritz]

Diane,
Come on, it's acceptable if we call it the "nervous system voice", but not the "fascial voice". Call it what you want.

If you are talking of "my theory", the skin and the nervous system are all a part of what I am treating. Can you say, with absolute certainty, that you are not treating the fascia when you do a skin stretch? What is the barrier that you hit when you stretch the skin? can we agree on a general term of "restriction"? As we saw in the "pain at night" thread, we have similar techniques, in part. Maybe we are both effecting the same tissues. maybe I'm missing the neuro componant and maybe you are missing the fascial component. What if you would stay with the stretch a bit longer than you normally do (though I'm not sure how long you remain with a stretch). What if you put just a bit more pressure into the system? You start to feel the underlying structures. If you stick around, you will feel that you are having an effect on those tissues as well.

Nick,
First off, we never encourage emotional releases. that is taught from day one of the seminars. The patient always has choice about anything that goes on in a session. And, no, emotional release is not essential to its astounding results. I have many clients who receive structural work with excellent results. I explained "there is no such thing as a disease" in the "fibro" thread. Of course your daughter needed the treatment that she received for her illness. What the statement is about is looking at what MD's send us in terms of "life sentences" that many patients get. "You'll probably need a knee replcement in a few years due to your arthritis". "You are going to have to live with the pain", "you'll probably need to take these pain medications for the rest of your lofe". We've all heard these reports from patients. When we can make positive changes in eliminating the pain that sent the patient to the MD in the first place, this represents a callous misdiagnosing of society. Are all diagnoses fixable with MFR? Of course not, but don't we owe it to someone to try? Unlike the CAM practitioners which you describe, we are still aware of the medical realities of illness. MFR is not CAM, despite what some may want you to beleive. MFR had its own Medicare CPT (97250) code up until a few years ago when it was lumped in with 97140, manual therapy technique. This is not about taking money from gullible, fearful people. This is about improving a person's quality of life, whenever possible.

Walt

[Diane]

Walt,

Can you say, with absolute certainty, that you are not treating the fascia when you do a skin stretch?

Yes.

What is the barrier that you hit when you stretch the skin?

I don't aim to "hit" "barriers."

can we agree on a general term of "restriction"?

I doubt it..

What if you would stay with the stretch a bit longer than you normally do (though I'm not sure how long you remain with a stretch).

As long as it takes for the info to go through the slow adapting type II mechanoreceptors, give the brain a chance to respond, the CNS a chance to alter its output through myriad mechanisms, all neurally and tightly controlled for survival of the organism.

What if you put just a bit more pressure into the system?

Why would I want to?

You start to feel the underlying structures. If you stick around, you will feel that you are having an effect on those tissues as well.

Why would I want to do that when I can ask someone's brain, through kinesthetic mechanisms to do all the heavy lifting for me?

[Nick]

Regardless, "there is no such thing as disease" remains a dangerous and stupid assertion.

Glad to see that you acknowledge the nervous system. I would also acknowledge the fascia, but I would be very hesitant to give it the properties that Barnes apparently believes it has. And I certainly could not even imagine that stretching it could work such wonders.

Let's consider the materials:
Fascia is, for all intents and purposes, inert (therefore, does not produce movement).
Fascia has incredible tensile strength (therefore, is fairly resistant to stretching).
Fascia is not an information system (such as the nervous system, endocrine system, and immune system).
Lots of people experience major restriction in their fascial systems with no horrible consequences.

Let's consider the environment:
One-on-one attention is a powerful thing.
Gentle touch is a powerful thing.
Verbal persuasion is a powerful (and very influential) thing.

Of course you get results! It just is not because of some kind of fascial manipulation. The "neuro component" is so much more important as to make any peripeheral restriction you may feel almost irrelevant...especially in people with persistent pain. The problem is not in the underlying structures.


Nick

[Walt Fritz]

Nick,

Fascia has incredible tensile strength (therefore, is fairly resistant to stretching

Though the sources may have been repudiated by our expert panel, it is quite easily stretched, all except for the densest scar tissue.

Lots of people experience major restriction in their fascial systems with no horrible consequences

example, please.

Fascia is not an information system (such as the nervous system, endocrine system, and immune system

Correct, but all of these structures pass through the fascia. It the fascia is bound down, information/flow can be hindered.

Let's consider the environment:
One-on-one attention is a powerful thing.
Gentle touch is a powerful thing.
Verbal persuasion is a powerful (and very influential) thing

whether treating neurally or fascially, we all are subject to these factors.

The "neuro component" is so much more important as to make any peripeheral restriction you may feel almost irrelevant...especially in people with persistent pain. The problem is not in the underlying structures.

Opinion noted.

Walt

[Diane]

Walt,

Quote:
Fascia has incredible tensile strength (therefore, is fairly resistant to stretching
Though the sources may have been repudiated by our expert panel, it is quite easily stretched, all except for the densest scar tissue.

At 2000 lbs tensile force/square inch???

Quote:
Fascia is not an information system (such as the nervous system, endocrine system, and immune system
Correct, but all of these structures pass through the fascia. It the fascia is bound down, information/flow can be hindered.

Wrong. That sounds awfully like the assertions posed by chiropractic's founders at the beginning of the last century. I beg to differ. The nervous system will set up alarms via nervi nervorum and the brain will generate pain output if it has even a suggestion of decreased blood flow. Long before any "fascial restrictions" cause any "hindering" of any "information flow."

[Jon Newman]

Walt,

I have lots of fascial restrictions and I don't hurt. Am I lucky? I don't feel lucky.

Fascia doesn't store memories. If you not only claim that science supports this notion but go on to detect it and treat these stuck memories and subsequently charge medicare for it, you're a criminal.

[Nick]

Okay Walt, here's an example. I have a 15 inch dense scar running across my abdomen. 30% of my liver was removed. After 6 weeks of recovery all was back to normal. I shudder to think what may lie ahead of me with such massive fascial disruption.

I agree that information flow may be hindered. Neurobiology accounts for the container concept. Still, we need to answer Diane's question about how we would actually alter that (besides reflexively through the skin). I'm not so sure Barnes would so readily agree that fascia is not an information system. How else would he account for its remarkable storage capacities?

"Quote:
Let's consider the environment:
One-on-one attention is a powerful thing.
Gentle touch is a powerful thing.
Verbal persuasion is a powerful (and very influential) thing

whether treating neurally or fascially, we all are subject to these factors."

Exactly. And it is these factors that are responsible for much of our effectiveness. I inserted influential to indicate how a practitioner might sway one's free choice to emote or not. People are highly suggestible undersuch conditions.

I appreciate you noting my "opinion" and hope that it means you are noting it as something worthy of further investigation. Rest assured that it is far more than my opinion. Anyone with a brain should know that.

Nick