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  • Jon,

    Of course I'm open to new information about the work that we do, all of us, but MFR as well. And if it is contrary or in addition to the information I've heard and read, yes, I'd be more than open to it. Any knowledge regarding the work that I do and it's effectiveness would be wonderful. In terms of the structural componant of MFR, further evidence of the nature of the medium would be great, as well as further proof of how the fascia, as well as the entire myofascial complex, stretch/release would confirm what is felt under my hands. As for the concept that emotions are held in the body, in addition or instead of the brain, I'm told that such work is being done. Again, I'm not a scientist, as Barrett wanted to make all of you aware that I'd already said, but isn't that the work that Canadice Pert 's book, "Molecules of Emotion"? Also, theories of Stuart Hammerhoff's microtubules as a mechanism of consciousness seem to hold promise.

    Walt

    Comment


    • Stretching skin

      Diane,

      First of all, it would not cost you $7000 to learn to stretch skin. I'll do that for $5! You want to continue to hold to the skin stretching model, but what about responding to both my question about folks responding to how you would treat a hypothetical patient using Simple Contact, or having the open mind to hear what I would do? Thanks for the thread regarding SC, I'll check it out.

      Walt

      Comment


      • #18

        Diane,

        Just reading the post, ignore my last comment!

        Walt

        Comment


        • Walt,

          Emotion isn't a thing to be held or stuck someplace is it?

          As far as what you feel under your hands, wouldn't a change in muscle tensions be a more plausible explanation for what is changing than the fascia itself based on what is already known about both of these tissues?

          As far as the clinical example regarding SC, I tried to progress a conversation in the thread where you initiated the conversation. Feel free to ask me more questions in that thread as it seems that we're mingling two existing threads here needlessly.
          "I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris

          Comment


          • Simple contact example

            Diane,

            thanks for the link. Profound similarities here. Sounds like the process of MFR Unwinding as well. But what would you do with a structural limitation contributing to the neural tension. Going back to the example of the driver of the car (I think you made this analogy) being the brain (this thread has gotten so long that finding things is tough!), if the fender is dented in on the wheel, no matter how hard the driver tries, the car will not go. The brain cannot control the body if the nerve is being crushed. 2000 lbs of pressure on the nerve (strength of the fascia) will render even the powerful brain unable to guide the body through its nerves.

            Your description of, I'm assuming, SC is quite good. we often start an unwinding like you described. Other times, an unwinding can be a spontaneous part of a regional release. Wouldn't it be scary if SC and MFR actually worked from the same principles?

            Walt

            Comment


            • The Wizard of Oz

              Barrett,

              Just catching up on some posts after a busy day.

              Now I’m being portrayed as some sort of creepy voyeur hiding behind a curtain
              Are you in Kansas anymore? For those of you students who are reading this, Barrett refers to John Barnes as the Wizard of Oz in one of his lengthy diatribes. Read it for yourself, and his many other criticisms of John Barnes and his work. Why would one teacher who leads continuing education seminars spend so much time criticizing another teacher, who just so happens to be wildly more successful? Students beware!

              Walt

              Comment


              • Jon,

                Thanks, I'll follow your thread...tomorrow.
                Walt

                Comment


                • The brain cannot control the body if the nerve is being crushed. 2000 lbs of pressure on the nerve (strength of the fascia) will render even the powerful brain unable to guide the body through its nerves.
                  I think reading Butler's SNS might help out here, don't like to think of nerves being "crushed" anymore, this seems to be an overly simplistic view of what causes pain. I would also hope that my brain was intelligent enough to move the body in ways that would minimize "crushing" (read ideomotion), and that this experience should be simple enough to be performed without extensive effort. Besides, which part of the 100,000 miles of nerves in our periphery is crushed? Seems like that would take awful lot of work and effort to sort out, (may be why they need intensive workshops). I think the evolutionary perspective corner would fit nicely here... the body should have a nice defense to protect against "crushing" in contrast to viewing tension as a defect of the fascia. I really find it hard to believe that it's only fascia that would be a problem in this instance. Besides, (and I think this was mentioned earlier in the thread) if the fascia is that strong and it dulls scalpels, what the heck are our hands going to passively do to it in a short amount of time if at all? And given what is known about connective tissue, stretching it out doesn't make any sense to the rapid "unwinding" you would see in a session. To the best of my knowledge connective tissue doesn't behave like that. But, what other system could account for such a rapid change?

                  Forgive me if I have repeated the views of other posters, I'm not quite caught up in the thread.

                  Chris
                  Christopher Bryhan MPT

                  "You are more likely to learn something by finding surprises in your own behavior then by hearing surprising facts about people in general"
                  Daniel Kahneman - Thinking Fast and Slow

                  Comment


                  • Great post Chris.
                    Walt, what Chis said.

                    Wouldn't it be scary if SC and MFR actually worked from the same principles?
                    Why?
                    Oh, you mean scary for the fascialistas? Maybe! No more dubious underpinnings that don't make sense, that can be charged over $7000 to learn in depth, that are either Cartesian and 20 years out of date or contain shoehorned-in pseudoscience a la Oschman et al and microtubule wild mental goose chases.
                    Diane
                    www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                    SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                    HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                    Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                    Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                    Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                    @PainPhysiosCan
                    WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                    @WCPTPTPN
                    Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                    @dfjpt
                    SomaSimple on Facebook
                    @somasimple

                    "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                    “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                    “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                    "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                    "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                    Comment


                    • Hmm, so many questions ignored, so much contrary evidence overlooked, so many dismissive conclusions made after reading the first few entries of a google search instead of the texts of expert researchers and peer-reviewed literature, and still we get -
                      Of course I'm open to new information about the work that we do, all of us, but MFR as well. And if it is contrary or in addition to the information I've heard and read, yes, I'd be more than open to it.
                      Somehow I'm finding it very difficult to take that seriously.

                      And now it seems we are right back at the beginning again -
                      The brain cannot control the body if the nerve is being crushed. 2000 lbs of pressure on the nerve (strength of the fascia) will render even the powerful brain unable to guide the body through its nerves.
                      Walt, we have established that fascia can stand 2000lbs of stretch but it cannot, except in JB's wildest dreams, contract with 2000lbs of pressure. Email Schleip and ask him if you don't believe me. Muscle is the primary contractile tissue in our body, not fascia, and there is only one type of tissue that can cause a muscle to contract. Learn something about it.

                      Why would Barrett spend time criticising Barnes work? Perhaps it's because he doesn't want to see a profession that he cares so much about end-up practicing alongside Hawaiian Biodynamic Seventh Dimensional Dolphin Shamanic Totem Past-Life Regression-based Post-Cellular Quantum Fractology Cranial Samskara Release therapists.

                      Luke
                      Last edited by Luke Rickards; 08-01-2006, 01:38 PM.
                      Luke Rickards
                      Osteopath

                      Comment


                      • Hey Luke...

                        Say that again??? Do these therapists have a website? tell me about the Hawaiian part of it...

                        Seriously, Walt...does fascia really have contractility? As muscle does?

                        Do your clients exhibit severe loss of function including paralysis?
                        Crushed nerves are serious business in real life.

                        Nari

                        Comment


                        • Luke, you forgot the quantum microtubules!
                          Diane
                          www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                          SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                          HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                          Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                          Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                          Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                          @PainPhysiosCan
                          WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                          @WCPTPTPN
                          Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                          @dfjpt
                          SomaSimple on Facebook
                          @somasimple

                          "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                          “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                          “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                          "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                          "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                          Comment


                          • Yes Nari, you can see the website if you send a photo. There you will read about the 7 Levels of Mastery. Not only can you go "beyond technique", you can transcend the space-time continuum and learn how to travel at 20,000 times the speed of light. All for the very low price of $8000 (a bit less for early birds).

                            Sorry Diane, I promise to channel those in next time.
                            Last edited by Luke Rickards; 08-01-2006, 08:18 AM.
                            Luke Rickards
                            Osteopath

                            Comment


                            • Eeek..I'll never send a photo of me anywhere..I'd frighten the horses.

                              Comment


                              • Luke,

                                I agree that it is unlikely that Walt is actually interested in using science as his preferred method for understanding what is happening under his hands. He alludes to this when he state

                                In terms of the structural componant of MFR, further evidence of the nature of the medium would be great, as well as further proof of how the fascia, as well as the entire myofascial complex, stretch/release would confirm what is felt under my hands.
                                He wants to confirm what he believes is happening under his hands rather than discover what is happening under his hands. Of course we all do this to some extent. That's what makes science special. It can be verified. Walt, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but it's the only conclusion I can come to with the information presented so far.

                                I have to wonder if this selection/filtering process (used for their upper level course) is something PT Barnum would have eventually formulated.
                                Last edited by Jon Newman; 08-01-2006, 04:00 PM.
                                "I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris

                                Comment

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