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  • #16
    This comment pretty much sums up how off base these people are:

    Pre hoc, post hoc, super hoc, does it really matter to a clinician? Others figure out why it works later
    This tells me that he hasn't a clue. CST "works" as well so should we just go ahead and mobilize cranial sutures.

    This guy is dumb. That's about as polite as I can be...

    Comment


    • #17
      Those like that guy in Canada (no one in Ohio is like that) have firmly grasped the third rail.

      It's our job to further electrify it.
      Barrett L. Dorko

      Comment


      • #18
        This retort from Mr. Begg is one I've heard before:

        Do we literally touch the alveoli when we percuss them?
        It's an apple to oranges comparator but I'd like to hear how the intelligent minds here would respond...

        Comment


        • #19
          I asked if percussing fascia was what he was getting at. I think.
          Diane
          www.dermoneuromodulation.com
          SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
          HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
          Neurotonics PT Teamblog
          Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
          Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
          @PainPhysiosCan
          WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
          @WCPTPTPN
          Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

          @dfjpt
          SomaSimple on Facebook
          @somasimple

          "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

          “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

          “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

          "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

          "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

          Comment


          • #20
            Hi Diane,
            I read through the entire "slide show"on LinkedIn and came to this conclusion. No matter how much you very thoughtfully explained that you can not "literally" touch fascia and fascia is not the cause of pain that guy was not and most likely will never truly listen to you or anyone else who has a differing position than him. His responses made absolutely no sense and when he said something to the effect of let the researchers worry about it, I am going to do what the patient wants (or something like that) I actually lost all interest in anything else he had to say. If he is not utilizing the best available evidence in treating his patients than he is doing a huge disservice to his patients and to his career as a PT. I don't know what the PT profession is like in CA but if this guy represents the majority there is a lot of work to be done. I thought you sounded great though!!
            Karen Litzy
            Twitter: @karenlitzyNYC
            FB page: Healthy Wealthy & Smart

            Comment


            • #21
              Thanks for the shout, Karen. :angel:
              Yes, I have no reason to think that he doesn't represent the majority. It's a long hard road... Good thing there are people virtually around to travel beside who are not like that.
              Diane
              www.dermoneuromodulation.com
              SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
              HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
              Neurotonics PT Teamblog
              Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
              Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
              @PainPhysiosCan
              WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
              @WCPTPTPN
              Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

              @dfjpt
              SomaSimple on Facebook
              @somasimple

              "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

              “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

              “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

              "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

              "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

              Comment


              • #22
                Things have died down.. this might be the very last effort from the other side. CPA retweeted it.
                Attached Files
                Diane
                www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                @PainPhysiosCan
                WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                @WCPTPTPN
                Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                @dfjpt
                SomaSimple on Facebook
                @somasimple

                "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Barrett Dorko View Post
                  Those like that guy in Canada (no one in Ohio is like that) have firmly grasped the third rail.

                  It's our job to further electrify it.
                  Barrett, what is the third rail?
                  Diane
                  www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                  SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                  HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                  Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                  Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                  Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                  @PainPhysiosCan
                  WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                  @WCPTPTPN
                  Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                  @dfjpt
                  SomaSimple on Facebook
                  @somasimple

                  "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                  “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                  “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                  "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                  "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Sometimes, when I think of Twitter--and just relate the first four letters of the word to a certain kind of poster....

                    A good therapist, like a good coach, strives to figure out what to do and how to do it.

                    Too often, we slightly change that, and end up believing that what we do is how to do it.

                    There's a big difference.

                    The coach or therapist who says "let the researchers worry about it" is content with the latter.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      [QUOTE]I blame the Canadian ortho stream for a large part of the dumbing down of our profession and subsequently dragging down the profession in Canada writ large.
                      [/QUOTE

                      Dear Proud,

                      I agree with this wholeheartedly. I teach in the Canadian Ortho system and became involved in this before I made a paradigm shift in my treatment approach. I have tried interjecting current neuroscience into my teaching weekends and have reached a few but it is an uphill battle. I'm not sure if I will continue to teach in this system due to the internal conflict.

                      Aaron
                      Last edited by AJ1; 14-06-2014, 01:21 AM. Reason: I messed up.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by proud
                        Any discussions I've had with ortho black belts in Canada have been astonishingly underwhelming. Many seem so oblivious that they don't even know that they are...indeed....oblivious.
                        Pain science is touched on (very lightly) in the Level 3 courses. You have to wait until Level 3 to even be introduced to this. I'm not sure if they feel people aren't bright enough to comprehend this information before this level or if they don't feel it is important enough to include this in the Level 1 course. Regardless, by the time pain science is introduced, people have already been immersed in the biomechanical model so deeply that it is hard to pull them out of this mindset.

                        Aaron

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          It seems to be the same in Oz - pain science is introduced quite late in the course, but this varies greatly amongst states - I am sure South Australia is quite different....

                          Nari

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally Posted by Barrett Dorko
                            Those like that guy in Canada (no one in Ohio is like that) have firmly grasped the third rail.

                            It's our job to further electrify it.

                            Barrett, what is the third rail?
                            In the London underground there are 3 rails on the ground, 2 for the 'wheels' of the carriage and 1 that is supposedly electrified (I put supposedly in there because I never checked but urban legends abound), Is that what you mean Barrett?
                            "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent." ("Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen.“) Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus Ludwig Wittgenstein
                            Question your tea spoons. Georges Perec

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Sorry if I come in as a downer to the party but I think it bears mentioning that though our hands and techniques very likely have no direct effect potential, it would say it is a mistake to discount the deeper receptors in muscle, tendon and proprioceptors and their afferent messaging as having therapeutic value. The goal is reduced threat and modulation of pain output. I'm not suggesting digging at tissue with ortho black belt techniques but slow, caring deeper pressures may provide value just as skin depth contact do. There is no real way to separate out what gave the brain a reason to change.

                              Nathan

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Nathan,

                                Do you think that if you press harder you get "deeper"?
                                Barrett L. Dorko

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