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  • Hi Barrett
    I'm supposed to pass some sort of anatomy and physiology test now? Do YOU know the answer to this question? Does temporal mean nothing to you?
    You don't have to answer the question. I've provided with some reasonable (imo) speculations (see previous posts).

    I KNOW you're suggesting that context is the same. That's like saying that people are capable of such a thing. They aren't.
    The scenario above was press on your forearm lightly and then harder. And the question was what receptors are activated during this process that account for the variable experience? The context is relatively the same, no?
    -Evan. The postings on this site are my own and do not represent the views or policies of my employer or APTA.
    The reason why an intellectual community is necessary is that it offers the only hope of grasping the whole. -Robert Maynard Hutchins.

    Comment


    • Patrick:
      evan, i think that thought experiment is impossible to play out because the altered strength of stimuli changes the context.
      perhaps we need to clarify the definition of 'context' then.
      -Evan. The postings on this site are my own and do not represent the views or policies of my employer or APTA.
      The reason why an intellectual community is necessary is that it offers the only hope of grasping the whole. -Robert Maynard Hutchins.

      Comment


      • Patrick:
        She seems to argue that the brain responds as it pleases, independent of the inputs it receives.
        Is that right, Diane? I get a similar impression but I want to make sure that I'm not misinterpreting your arguments.
        -Evan. The postings on this site are my own and do not represent the views or policies of my employer or APTA.
        The reason why an intellectual community is necessary is that it offers the only hope of grasping the whole. -Robert Maynard Hutchins.

        Comment


        • Diane:
          Whichever ones the brain decides to pay attention to, in a given context.

          You don't seem to get that.
          Why do you say that I don't seem to get that? I've been arguing in favor of this.

          let me paraphrase:
          Do you think that the experience of strong stimuli is constructed independent of activation of deeper than superficial receptors?
          -Evan. The postings on this site are my own and do not represent the views or policies of my employer or APTA.
          The reason why an intellectual community is necessary is that it offers the only hope of grasping the whole. -Robert Maynard Hutchins.

          Comment


          • Evan,

            The sum total of what you're doing is asking me the same question twice. I didn't answer it the first time.

            This is supposed to be some sort of progress?
            Barrett L. Dorko

            Comment


            • Patrick:
              Quote:
              evan, i think that thought experiment is impossible to play out because the altered strength of stimuli changes the context.
              perhaps we need to clarify the definition of 'context' then.
              I think it's reasonable to argue that the results that follow anything we do with our hands (heavy/light , perpendicular / angled) will be influenced by the patient's cognitive and/or affective ongoing and cyclical assessment of the meaning of the specific sensory/discrim input. That makes it difficult to control for context for the purpose of measuring influences of a specific type of sensory /discrim input. Ie light vs heavy pressure.

              Comment


              • I see your point Patrick. If the context we are talking about is as you say " cognitive and/or affective ongoing and cyclical assessment of the meaning of the specific sensory/discrim input." , or even any input, then I agree that it is difficult to control for this, as this context is always changing and it might never be exactly the same. However, we can still argue that general context can be repeated/remain the same, and I think it's also reasonable to say that the context is relatively the same in the above scenario where we press on our own body for the sole purpose of testing the influence of force parameter on perception/how it feels to us.

                I think that we all agree that the force parameter influences the experience. That's what's driving me to consider what might be going on at the receptors level.


                Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                -Evan. The postings on this site are my own and do not represent the views or policies of my employer or APTA.
                The reason why an intellectual community is necessary is that it offers the only hope of grasping the whole. -Robert Maynard Hutchins.

                Comment


                • Thank you all for posting. It helps me.
                  I see these threads as an attempt to think about what MORE could be happening - NOT to drive therapy, but to inform ourselves what may contribute to patient's perceptions.
                  NOT to inform/drive the patient or our technique, but to consider ALL factors that may be at play.
                  It is of significant intrerest to me to simply understand more of what may be happening - not always as a path to change what I do, but to simply understand more aspects of what may be going on in the beautiful complexity under my hands.

                  So, again: thank you all.
                  We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin

                  I suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
                  Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

                  Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

                  We don't need a body to feel a body. Ronald Melzack

                  Comment


                  • There's also the constant complaint/implication regarding the perceived certainty on the part of the therapist.

                    At this, I'm aghast.
                    Barrett L. Dorko

                    Comment


                    • To clear up any vagueness about what I might be implying, i don't mind openly stating that I think Diane is too certain in her position on the notion that the cns follows a processing hierarchy based on ecto vs meso origin of tissues. I think Diane is too certain about a dualistic notion of nervous system/skin = self, while everything else (perhaps with exception of blood vessels) = other than self.

                      I think this certainty limits the dissemination of important info to the rest of the profession.

                      Barrett, I don't think you display certainty with regards to any of this stuff, which I appreciate (not that my appreciation is of any particular significance or consequence).

                      Generally, speaking I think the neuromatrix is a useful framework for deconstructing specific treatment models that are focused on a particular input. One can always argue against the idea that a single input is a significant/predominant driver of an output, because one can't make a judgment about the influence of other inputs. This applies to ecto/meso debate too, but not many here seem to accept that. Diane resolves this problem by simply not thinking about how some inputs might be relevant to her outcomes. It's like someone getting sick from eating rotten bacon and eggs, and claiming that it was the eggs that made him/her sick, not the bacon. Its such a bizarre stance for someone who is obviously so intelligent.

                      Bas, I wish I had written something like that a few hundred posts ago. Thanks.

                      Comment


                      • All I ever do is point out that the nervous system brain IS ecto, and that all it cares about is itself. There is massive support for that. Massive.
                        Diane
                        www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                        SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                        HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                        Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                        Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                        Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                        @PainPhysiosCan
                        WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                        @WCPTPTPN
                        Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                        @dfjpt
                        SomaSimple on Facebook
                        @somasimple

                        "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                        “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                        “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                        "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                        "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                        Comment


                        • Evan says, post 169:
                          nerves do not live in isolation. Their environment influences their physiology and is also sensitive to manual therapy parameters.
                          If you mean the protective neural walls of sensory axons, i.e., perineurium (mesodermal, posing a mechanical challenge to blood flow both in and out if on tension for too long), internal macrophages (immune cells), and their most adjacent non-meso walls, endoneurium and Schwann cells (physiologically active), I agree.
                          Diane
                          www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                          SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                          HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                          Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                          Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                          Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                          @PainPhysiosCan
                          WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                          @WCPTPTPN
                          Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                          @dfjpt
                          SomaSimple on Facebook
                          @somasimple

                          "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                          “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                          “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                          "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                          "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                          Comment


                          • Evan says, in post 169:
                            As to the “bottom-up/operator” style: Everything we do in therapy including “dnm” is a combination of bottom-up inputs. The basic pre-existing command in the CSN is “adapt” to those inputs.
                            If you include all the ways the two nervous systems belonging to a) therapist, and b) patient interact from the first moment they first lay eyes on each other, through sensing, then I agree.
                            If you mean strictly hands-on therapy, then I disagree. Only a prepared brain will take on and favourably exploit hands-on treatment. It has to want to. It has to have had time to discharge it's own anxiety and forebodings and mount some trust. All the better if part of that can be kinesthetically reinforced, congruent.
                            I'm pretty sure the reason manual therapy always washes out when studied/analyzed statistically for efficacy is because thorough preparation of the patient's (and the therapist's!) brain has not been done.
                            Part of that would be practitioners who explain things from a tissue perspective, likely. The very thing Adriaan Louw says, don't do anymore because it's a nocebo.
                            Diane
                            www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                            SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                            HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                            Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                            Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                            Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                            @PainPhysiosCan
                            WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                            @WCPTPTPN
                            Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                            @dfjpt
                            SomaSimple on Facebook
                            @somasimple

                            "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                            “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                            “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                            "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                            "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                            Comment


                            • From Evan's post #169:
                              What do you mean pain is a “top down” phenomenon? Is pain something that starts from the top and travels to the bottom somewhere? If you are talking about the nervous system apparatus, are you completely ignoring afferent fibers?
                              Pain is experienced in the brain, in many different somatosensory maps/representations. "You don't need a body to feel a body" - Ronald Melzack.
                              Because inhibitory mechanisms are either lifted, or not deployed favourably (possibly due to stress/anxiety/mental distraction), spinal cord mechanisms enter positive feedback loop states (many many mechanisms) and perpetuate the pain situation.

                              I'm not ignoring afferent fibres. They are the only way to add new input into the pain mess. It better not be more nociceptive input, though. In a positive feedback loop that would be the last thing you would want to do.
                              Diane
                              www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                              SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                              HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                              Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                              Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                              Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                              @PainPhysiosCan
                              WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                              @WCPTPTPN
                              Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                              @dfjpt
                              SomaSimple on Facebook
                              @somasimple

                              "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                              “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                              “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                              "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                              "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                              Comment


                              • I see that neither Patrick nor Evanthis have bothered to read the McGlone paper yet. They might want to.
                                Or not, if they want to remain staunchly mesodermalist in their thinking and treatment approaches.
                                Diane
                                www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                                SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                                HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                                Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                                Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                                Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                                @PainPhysiosCan
                                WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                                @WCPTPTPN
                                Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                                @dfjpt
                                SomaSimple on Facebook
                                @somasimple

                                "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                                “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                                “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                                "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                                "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                                Comment

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