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Exploring the Pelvis with Diane Lee

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  • CT Exploring the Pelvis with Diane Lee

    This interview is quite revealing I think.. at 48+ mins: "Bollocks to the research!"

    http://physioedge.com.au/pe-018-expl...ith-diane-lee/
    Anders.
    "There is nothing so practical as a good theory." -Kurt Lewin

  • #2
    Mad as a mad thing.

    ANdy
    "Here is Edward Bear coming downstairs now, bump, bump, bump, on the back of his head behind Christopher Robin. It is, as far as he knows, the only way of coming downstairs, but sometimes he feels that there is another way, if only he could stop bumping for a moment and think of it." A.A. Milne

    Comment


    • #3
      So if there are lots and lots of things for things to go wrong when looking at mobility in the pelvis but I know in my heart and my gut and in my 35 years of practice and its very goint to be very difficult for me to change my mind and Andre keeps saying "Diane look at the research you have to follow the evidence" and I go I just don't believe its just one thing I just don't believe and...you've worked in the integrated systems model, David, you know uhm that the whole approach of finding drivers and looking for timing and looking for failed load transfer if we can't feel the SI joint move, we can't determine what is doing when it should be doing or its not. THE WHOLE MODEL FALLS APART. Because if your going to look at the influence of the thorax on the pelvis if you can't find the finding you can't interpret the finding because you can't find it. So if you can't determine the failed load transfer in the pelvis then you have know way of knowing the influence hip on it the knee on it, the foot on it, the thorax, and the cranium, we need to test lead in, we think we have it but we don't have scientific research to support it. Bollocks to the research my clinical experience and the clinical experience of many other clinicians across multiple disciplines some people say that they need to see more data. Maybe they need to see more data, but I don't.
      My bold.

      Well there you have it, a case study in false consensus, confirmation bias, and cognitive dissonance. And ohh the hubris of it all.

      This just happened to Diane's model:


      Good luck digging this theory out of the trash bin. Thanks for playing, try again Diane.

      Eric
      Last edited by Diane; 10-11-2013, 03:29 PM. Reason: I needed the link for the gif. Love it!
      --------------------------------------------------------------
      Body is imbued with mind, and mind is embodied.

      Comment


      • #4
        [I just want to point out to readers, it's a different Diane - Diane Lee, not me.]
        Diane
        www.dermoneuromodulation.com
        SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
        HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
        Neurotonics PT Teamblog
        Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
        Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
        @PainPhysiosCan
        WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
        @WCPTPTPN
        Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

        @dfjpt
        SomaSimple on Facebook
        @somasimple

        "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

        “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

        “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

        "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

        "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

        Comment


        • #5
          You're both Canucks.
          “You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.” Buckminster Fuller

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Rick Carter View Post
            You're both Canucks.
            More by fluke than by design.
            Diane
            www.dermoneuromodulation.com
            SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
            HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
            Neurotonics PT Teamblog
            Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
            Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
            @PainPhysiosCan
            WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
            @WCPTPTPN
            Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

            @dfjpt
            SomaSimple on Facebook
            @somasimple

            "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

            “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

            “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

            "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

            "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

            Comment


            • #7
              Really, the more I think about this quote, the more I see the fortress is falling down.
              The Fortress of Mesodoom. Humpty Dumpty.



              Thank you so much for posting that Anders, and for that highlight Eric, and that biomechanical model fail gif. :thumbs_up

              :clap2:
              Diane
              www.dermoneuromodulation.com
              SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
              HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
              Neurotonics PT Teamblog
              Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
              Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
              @PainPhysiosCan
              WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
              @WCPTPTPN
              Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

              @dfjpt
              SomaSimple on Facebook
              @somasimple

              "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

              “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

              “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

              "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

              "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

              Comment


              • #8
                wonder if she has read this .....

                http://www.cpdo.net/Lederman_The_fal...ical_model.pdf

                "Bollocks to the research my clinical experience and the clinical experience of many other clinicians across multiple disciplines some people say that they need to see more data. Maybe they need to see more data, but I don't".

                Of course you don't ...whenever your mind is totally fixed (like the structure of a brick wall) it needs a big hammer to make any dent in it ......besides if this happens the money generating scheme faces a few challenges ..... There are lots of structuralists facing the same dilemma I would imagine .
                Last edited by ian s; 10-11-2013, 10:44 AM. Reason: sp

                Comment


                • #9
                  Isn't her daughter a big proponent of this thinking as well? I wonder if she will face the doubt one day?
                  Byron Selorme -SomaSimpleton and Science Based Yoga Educator
                  Shavasana Yoga Center

                  "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" Richard Feynman

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The Lees aren't related. It's just coincidence that they have the same last name.
                    Diane
                    www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                    SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                    HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                    Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                    Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                    Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                    @PainPhysiosCan
                    WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                    @WCPTPTPN
                    Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                    @dfjpt
                    SomaSimple on Facebook
                    @somasimple

                    "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                    “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                    “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                    "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                    "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Diane, I believe LJ Lee and Diane Lee do not teach/work together any longer. I haven't yet listened to the interview. As you can appreciate this is the type of thinking that has come from the leadership of our manual therapy system in Canada for years. It is still biomechanically based. Thankfully we have a Pain Sciences division. We all need to be the catalyst for change. Forums such as this are part of that change. I understand I am speaking to the converted. Keep on challenging the education groups. This is being done in Canada and change will come. It will be slow but it will come.

                      Thanks,
                      Jim Millard

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Jimmy View Post
                        Diane, I believe LJ Lee and Diane Lee do not teach/work together any longer. I haven't yet listened to the interview. As you can appreciate this is the type of thinking that has come from the leadership of our manual therapy system in Canada for years. It is still biomechanically based. Thankfully we have a Pain Sciences division. We all need to be the catalyst for change. Forums such as this are part of that change. I understand I am speaking to the converted. Keep on challenging the education groups. This is being done in Canada and change will come. It will be slow but it will come.

                        Thanks,
                        Jim Millard

                        I know.

                        OK, well, I don't "know" for sure, but I can hope. Right? And thank you for your supportive comments Jim! :angel:

                        I guess I thought having a Pain Science Division would solve the problem (in Canada at least), bam, full stop.
                        Clearly that was just wishful thinking. However, I think it is helping, slightly.. maybe little by little..
                        Diane
                        www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                        SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                        HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                        Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                        Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                        Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                        @PainPhysiosCan
                        WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                        @WCPTPTPN
                        Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                        @dfjpt
                        SomaSimple on Facebook
                        @somasimple

                        "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                        “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                        “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                        "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                        "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          More than you think Diane! All of those feeds you send out on Twitter and the facebook page etc make an impact. Thank you. It is a thankless job. I am seeing Ortho minded PTs up here that are starting to question their beliefs. The seed has been planted.....stay tuned.

                          Much appreciated!
                          Jim

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Jimmy View Post
                            More than you think Diane! All of those feeds you send out on Twitter and the facebook page etc make an impact. Thank you. It is a thankless job. I am seeing Ortho minded PTs up here that are starting to question their beliefs. The seed has been planted.....stay tuned.
                            Whoo-hoo!! :clap2::clap2::clap2:

                            Ray of hope. :angel::thumbs_up

                            [Tell me Jimmy, have we met?]
                            Diane
                            www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                            SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                            HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                            Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                            Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                            Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                            @PainPhysiosCan
                            WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                            @WCPTPTPN
                            Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                            @dfjpt
                            SomaSimple on Facebook
                            @somasimple

                            "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                            “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                            “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                            "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                            "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Not formally Diane. I wanted to come to your recent course in Toronto but had a family conflict so could not attend. I hope to attend a course/sit down and chat in the future. Just wanted you to know your Pain Sciences Division is starting to help us old ortho trained PTs move forward. The ortho division in Canada should be a subgroup of the Pain Sciences Division. Maybe one day......

                              Cheers,
                              Jim

                              Comment

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