Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

On Feldenkrais Training

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • On Feldenkrais Training

    This discussion between rkathryn and myself appeared on Barrett's Global Resources thread. I think it's probably more appropriate as a stand-alone discussion, so am deleting it and moving it here.

    I would be happy to engage any Feldy's or other interested parties in this discussion or generally shoot the breeze on Feldenkrais training (merits and demerits).

    Originally posted by Barrett Dorko View Post
    Not "combine" it?

    I really don't get that, but I'm growing even more uneasy about what's being done with Feldenkrais' name.

    I spent a weekend with Betty Fuller, a Trager and Feldenkrais practitioner. Her story was that she brought these two together (the men themselves) and they treated each other to great effect and the delight of both.

    I watched Feldenkrais rage at people who wanted to know what they should do for a specific joint and now I see that there are "Feldenkrais exercises" for low back pain. I imagine he's spinning.
    Yeah, they don't teach us marketing, either.

    The thing is, the public wants "exercises", so in an attempt to appease, some have started talking that language. But without expertise in that domain, a shallow approach is produced.

    Are "feldenkrais exercises" bad? Maybe. I use to think so anyway, but then it occurred to me to look at it from "feldenkrais in exercise" (aka approaching exercise from an educative/motor control/neuro perspective - a deeper model then just pumping iron).

    The issue with FM is that no-one wants to say what it is for fear of pigeon-holing it, so you end up with paralysis by committee.

    Rkathryn: have you looked at Rywerants books? "Acquiring the Feldenkrais profession" is the one I suggest - it gives you some of the where and whys of ATM and FI.

    www.achievingexcellence.com/p-a_ryw2_review.html

    Teaching thru handling is his seminal work, but to my shame, I've not read much of it. That discusses the idea of FI as a means of communicative touch.

    There is another book, written by an Australian PT called something like Feldenkrais for physiotherapists. I'll try to find the exact title.

    Found it (I think): www.iffresearchjournal.org/volume/3/elgelid

    Finally, may also check out Jeff Hallers & Larry Goldfarbs work. Haller was the first person I ever saw to reference the core stability myth article, and as a martial artist and firmer basketball coach, tends to have a pragmatic approach.

    www.insidemoves.org/

    Goldfarb wrote his Phd (kines) on Feldenkrais and has several wonderful models (such as SPIFFER)

    I'd love to continue this discussion, btw, here in public. It's something that bothered me for years. We need to do something, because as a friend of mine said "it was life-changing, but did I basically pay $30K to roll around on the floor for 4 years? How the hell does it work and what do I tell people?".

    http://Www.utahfeldenkrais.org/blog/...rt-a-practice/
    Last edited by Dan84; 21-05-2013, 05:17 PM.
    Dan
    Tactile Raconteur

  • #2
    There use to be a pretty lengthy article on the SPIFFER model. I read it once and thought "cool! I need to get the DVD!". Sadly, I never got around to that. Still, for curious parties, SPIFFER is a way to observe movement quality (rather then ROM, pathology etc) within the Feldenkrais domain. (I'm not sure if they teach it at trainings anymore? Maybe only if Larry is teaching that week?)

    The below video blurb calls it 'being a movement detective'. It's maybe not a very thrilling video (my speakers aren't working so well here)

    [YT]V915C3RkdQs[/YT]

    SPIFFER identifies seven fundamental and interrelated ways that we observe and
    experience movement:
    Sequence: the chain of motion through the skeleton.
    Path: the line of motion through three-dimensional space.
    Initiation: where the movement begins.
    Foundation: how weight is distributed over the base of support.
    Flow: tempo including speed, acceleration and the attitude toward time and control.
    Effort: patterns of muscular action and the experience of exertion.
    Respiration: the rhythms and dimensions of breathing

    By clarifying the perceptual dimensions of motion, SPIFFER makes it possible to:
    – Comprehend movement from anatomical, spatial, gravitational, and temporal
    perspectives.
    – Identify perceptual preferences and sensory blind spots.
    – Better understand your patients and how they learn.
    – Give more effective movement cues and clearer instructions.
    – Learn simple, effective pedagogical strategies.
    – Develop greater flexibility, joy, and creativity in teaching
    I'm not very up-to speed with the model (and I don't want to seem like a shill for Goldfarb; never met the guy anyway) but the above ideas could be a good start for discussion.
    Last edited by Dan84; 21-05-2013, 05:52 PM.
    Dan
    Tactile Raconteur

    Comment


    • #3
      As a disclaimer: I have no formal Feldenkrais training whatsoever.
      I'm familiar with his literature and have read a bunch of interviews of his.

      As a basis, I gathered that for Feldenkrais it was never about "this technique" or "that movement". Considering his being self-taught and having devised his program by trial and error (and past influences), I don't see how one could justify a formal "list" of "feldenkrais exercises".
      I have always understood FM as more of an approach to getting to know the movements of one's body and figuring out how to "tune in" to one's mechanics.

      I don't think there was really supposed to be an inherently "wrong" or "right" movement in feldenkrais, at least I remember him specifically stating this was not the case.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by MaxG View Post
        As a disclaimer: I have no formal Feldenkrais training whatsoever.
        I'm familiar with his literature and have read a bunch of interviews of his.
        He's not a very fluid writer, is he?

        As a basis, I gathered that for Feldenkrais it was never about "this technique" or "that movement". Considering his being self-taught and having devised his program by trial and error (and past influences), I don't see how one could justify a formal "list" of "feldenkrais exercises".
        That's true in most respects. FWIW, the apocryphal story is that most of his 'exercises' were derived from Judo groundwork and observations of children learning to walk / move (IIRC his wife was a paediatrician. Feldenkrais himself was an engineer, not an MD as some imply).

        If you want to see the original set of explorations, you'd need to get the (voluminous) Alexander Yannai transcripts. I don't think they were ever intended as 'sets and reps' though.

        I don't think there was really supposed to be an inherently "wrong" or "right" movement in feldenkrais, at least I remember him specifically stating this was not the case.
        True. However, in Feldy think, there are more and less appropriate movements. Typical a 'better' movement is one that is considered reversible. That is - movement in a fashion that allows on to change direction without having to reset.

        I'm hashing this stuff up from memory: there are also things to be said about sense of effort (where effortlessness = muscles working proportionally to strength / cross sectional area), dynamic vs static balance (regarding moments of inertia etc).

        There was a good article by a Feldy/Physio re: finding some of the links between motor control theories and Feldenkrais' discoveries. I think the author was Carol Bates - I'll try to find in the following weeks / days
        Last edited by Dan84; 21-05-2013, 06:22 PM.
        Dan
        Tactile Raconteur

        Comment


        • #5
          From a quick google, I think this is the article

          Bate, P (1996). “Motor Control: a possible foundation for the Feldenkrais
          Method”. Journal of the North American Feldenkrais Guild.

          I'm pretty sure I have this, somewhere. I'll scan it and post it when I get home next week.
          Dan
          Tactile Raconteur

          Comment


          • #6
            Ha! I found this in google cache; it seems to be by a chiropractor of all things, discussing idiopathic scoliosis. It mentions this (and several other) Feldenkrais sources. I'll skip straight to the stuff on Bates

            ...

            In terms of cybernetics, communication is considered a six part process. The
            Geometrodynamic action theory offers a corroborating perspective. According to this theory, the interaction of environment and organism is subject to certain constraints. These constraints cause us to momentarily move as if we were comprised of springs and pendulums. Again this is thought to reduce reaction time and computational load. Bate explains it thus–

            "Imagine returning from the supermarket with a bag of groceries. You put them on a low bench in the kitchen. Amongst the assorted items is a bottle of juice...You reach down and hook two fingers through the handle as you turn towards the refrigerator. You let the container drop to the full length of your arm, it swings out a little way from your body, dragging your arm through a curvilinear path to the refrigerator. Towards the end of the arc the container gains just sufficient height to graze the lowest shelf. You add a little shove and it slides in to rest. What sort of mechanical system did your arm become? What principles of physics were exploited? Perhaps the muscles of the arm were constrained to act like a pendulum...”

            According to Geometrodynamic theories motor programs dictate the relative stiffness and length of muscles. Certain ratios of stiffness to length are required to cause an arm to swing like a pendulum. However if information input is flawed, the choice of length to stiffness becomes flawed. Subsequent adjustments must be made to compensate for this so that the limb can achieve a simple machine configuration. In doing so, other structures must be displaced. Only a small conceptual step is required to apply this idea to idiopathic scoliosis.


            The question remains as to how chiropractic can assist in the management of IS. Certainly there is reasonable rationale for the use of SMT (spinal manipulation therapy) in alleviating pain and reducing muscle spasm (Danbert , 1989). However most approaches have widely variable results. To date little peer reviewed evidence exists to show the benefit of chiropractic in IS. What little does exist points towards the use of SMT purely as palliative care (Tarola , 1994).

            Other approaches in manual therapy have focused on strengthening / stretching of taut connective tissue. This is a mistake. Clear evidence exists to show there is no correlation between muscle strength and posture (Levine, 1997). Furthermore, beyond the temporary relaxation effect brought about by aggressive stretching, connective tissue elements remain impervious to direct, prolonged pressure (Threlkeld, 1992). In essence, the body acts to dissipate force, much like a rubber ball.

            Applying a cybernetic point of view to the situation, one of the goals of manual therapy should be to increase choice in movement production. Furthermore awareness of perceptual filtering and information mis-processing are required to gain full appreciation of motor control. In doing so one of the main tenets of chiropractic can be achieved – a self correcting system.

            One of the better ways to achieve this is through non coercive touch. As Yochanan notes the quality and quantity of information passed between sender and recipient drops sharply as force increases. Non coercive contact also allows for playful exploration of movement patterns while in a safe environment. Furthermore is grants the sender the ability to notice small, otherwise undetectable movements.

            In true cybernetic fashion, such contact is replete with feedback between sender and receiver. What’s more the sender is able to create situations (feedforward) in which the receiver must overcome some obstacle to achieve a goal. In doing so perceptual filters are illuminated.


            In conclusion, the cause of IS remains mysterious. While recent theories recognize several causative elements, little progress has been made in the management of idiopathic scoliosis. Cybernetic theories offer a possible avenue to base chiropractic handling of IS on. In accordance with these theories the transmission, detection and representation of information is key to the management of this disease. Should chiropractic adapt to fulfil this role, it will better serve as a useful tool in addressing idiopathic scoliosis.


            REFERENCES

            Bate, P (1996). “Motor Control: a possible foundation for the Feldenkrais
            Method”. Journal of the North American Feldenkrais Guild

            Bullock, A., Stallybrass, O (eds). (1988) The Fontana Dictionary of Modern
            Thought. Fontana Press

            Byrd, JA. (1988) "Current theories on the etiology of idiopathic scoliosis"
            Clin Orthop ; (229):114-9

            Danbert RJ. (1989) "Scoliosis: biomechanics and rationale for manipulative
            treatment". J Manipulative Physiol Ther ; 12(1):38-45

            Dubousset, J. (1999) ”Idiopathic scoliosis : Definition-pathology-
            classification-etiology.” Bull Acad Natl Med ; 183(4):699-704

            Ebenbichler G, Liederer A, Lack W. (1994) “Scoliosis and its conservative
            treatment possibilities" Wien Med Wochenschr ; 144(24):593-604

            Hadley-Miller N, Mims B, Milewicz DM (1994) "The potential role of the
            elastic fiber system in adolescent idiopathic scoliosis." J Bone Joint Surg
            Am; 76(8):1193-206


            Hopf C, Scheidecker M, Steffan K. (1998) "Gait analysis in idiopathic
            scoliosis before and after surgery: a comparison of the pre- and
            postoperative muscle activation pattern." Eur Spine J 7(1):6-11

            Jiang H, Moreau M, Raso J, Russell G, Bagnall K. (1997) "Identification of
            the location, extent, and pathway of sensory neurologic feedback after
            mechanical stimulation of a lateral spinal ligament in chickens." Spine
            22(1):17-25

            Keessen W, Crowe A, Hearn M. (1992) "Proprioceptive accuracy in
            idiopathic scoliosis." Spine ; 17(2):149-55

            Levine, D. (1996) “Static and dynamic relationships between pelvic tilt,
            lumbar lordosis and abdominal muscle performance.” Physical Therapy
            76; 74

            Maguire J, Madigan R, Wallace S, Leppanen R, Draper V. (1993)
            "Intraoperative long-latency reflex activity in idiopathic scoliosis
            demonstrates abnormal central processing. A possible cause of idiopathic
            scoliosis." Spine ; 15;18(12):1621-6.

            McCulloch, W. (1975) as appears in Pask, G. Cybernetics of Human
            Learning and Performance. Crane Russak & Co

            Mclirk, T. (1968) Dictionary of Cybernetic - a primer in cybernetic. Keats
            Publishing

            Pask, G. (1975) Cybernetics of Human Learning and Performance.
            Crane Russak & Co

            Pekelis, V. (1974) Cybernetics A to Z Mir Publishers

            Sahlstrand T, Ortengren R, Nachemson A. (1978) "Postural equilibrium in
            adolescent idiopathic scoliosis." Acta Orthop Scand ; 49(4):354-65

            Shohat M, Shohat T, Nitzan M, Mimouni M, Kedem R, Danon YL. (1988)
            "Growth and ethnicity in scoliosis" Acta Orthop Scand ; 59(3):310-3

            Summers, J. "Motor Programs" (1981) as appears in Holding, D (ed)
            Human Skills John Wiley and sons.

            Tarola GA (1994) "Manipulation for the control of back pain and curve
            progression in patients with skeletally mature idiopathic scoliosis: two
            cases" J Manipulative Physiol Ther ; 17(4):253-7

            Threlkeld, AJ. (1992) “The effect of manual therapy on connective tissue.”
            APTA Journal ;72(12).

            Weinstein SL, Dolan LA, Spratt KF, Peterson KK, Spoonamore MJ,
            Ponseti IV. (2003) "Health and function of patients with untreated
            idiopathic scoliosis: a 50-year natural history study." JAMA 5;289(5):559-
            67

            Wiener, N. (1986) Human Use of Human Beings: Cybernetics and Society.
            Avon Publishing,.

            Wong MS, Mak AF, Luk KD, Evans JH, Brown B. (2002) "Effect of using
            prismatic eye lenses on the posture of patients with adolescent idiopathic
            scoliosis measured by 3-d motion analysis." Prosthet Orthot Int ;
            26(2):139-53

            Yochanan, R. (1983) The Feldenkrais Method - Teaching by Handling.
            Keats Publishing.

            Holy crap! Did a friggen chiro write that SMT has limited use, and that there is no correlation between strength and posture?!?
            Last edited by Dan84; 21-05-2013, 06:42 PM.
            Dan
            Tactile Raconteur

            Comment


            • #7
              A dead chiro = novelty.
              Diane
              www.dermoneuromodulation.com
              SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
              HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
              Neurotonics PT Teamblog
              Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
              Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
              @PainPhysiosCan
              WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
              @WCPTPTPN
              Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

              @dfjpt
              SomaSimple on Facebook
              @somasimple

              "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

              “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

              “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

              "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

              "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Diane View Post
                A dead chiro = novelty.
                No foolin'

                I'm, well...stunned.

                (I'll find Bate's article ASAP; if someone else has it, please share it?)
                Dan
                Tactile Raconteur

                Comment


                • #9
                  Well, clearly I'm not getting any sleep tonight.

                  Are folks acquainted with Feldenkrais derived approaches like "Bones for Life", "Core Integration", "Sleeping Sominars" etc? In some ways, I wonder if these methods aren't more palatable (they're certainly cheaper) because they speak to a niche. Then again, they aren't exactly setting the world on fire either, though I understand Baniel's work is increasingly well known. Of course, she's charismatic and I understand her trainings are every bit as expensive as the original.

                  Another point:

                  Generally speaking, ATMs are taught as an embodiment of an idea. For example, lesson x can be use to illustrate point y.

                  I think there are a lot of good things in this approach but I think I leaves a lot of us scratching our heads and scrambling for a coherent narrative. Very often that narrative is filled by some odd things indeed.
                  Last edited by Dan84; 21-05-2013, 09:30 PM.
                  Dan
                  Tactile Raconteur

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Ban84 View Post
                    I understand Baniel's work is increasingly well known. Of course, she's charismatic and I understand her trainings are every bit as expensive as the original.
                    I think she was here for awhile. I think she maybe lost interest.
                    Diane
                    www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                    SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                    HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                    Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                    Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                    Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                    @PainPhysiosCan
                    WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                    @WCPTPTPN
                    Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                    @dfjpt
                    SomaSimple on Facebook
                    @somasimple

                    "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                    “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                    “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                    "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                    "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Oh
                      Dan
                      Tactile Raconteur

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        FWIW, there's an attempt to "Open source" Feldenkrais work that's being discussed behind the scenes.

                        It's a dangerous idea when you've been closed sourced forever. Feldenkrais was famously reticent to share his work for fear of imitators. This is why you will very rarely get to see "inside the magician's circle".

                        It's a damn weird phenomena. I think Moshe might have been a closet fan of Orwell - remove the language and the ideas can't spread, except in the state approved manner.

                        Maybe that came after - not sure. Barrett actually met the guy, so probably has a better read then I do.
                        Last edited by Dan84; 21-05-2013, 09:53 PM.
                        Dan
                        Tactile Raconteur

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Check out this thread from 4 years ago and you'll see what we're up against in the Feldenkrais community.

                          Bones For Life has never impressed me and the participants (so far) have REFUSED to speak.

                          I don't know, but I've always thought that what has happened with Moshe's work is just what he imagined would.
                          Barrett L. Dorko

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Ironic, isn't it?

                            What would make things better?
                            Dan
                            Tactile Raconteur

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I'm reminded of a phenomena in martial arts called "steal this technique". The teacher will show you how to do it - and train you to a level - but won't tell you how it's done.

                              "I'll show you two corners...you figure out the rest of the square".

                              For that, you have to steal the secret. The secret is usually quite simple, but if you tell everyone, everyone knows and there goes your livelihood.

                              It's meant to maintain fidelity (only the really good/ smart guys can steal it and those are the guys you want to be the standard bearers) but as has often happened in taichi and aikido, it just leads to dilution and anaemia.

                              Ellis Amdur wrote a few good books on this ("Hidden in Plain sight" is his latest) and there quite a few threads on the idea over at aikiweb.

                              Feldenkrais was a judoka from the pre-war Japanese school: I wonder if there's a link.
                              Last edited by Dan84; 16-06-2013, 02:58 AM. Reason: typo
                              Dan
                              Tactile Raconteur

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X