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  • This might be what you're after

    http://www.achievingexcellence.com/p-gol1.html
    Dan
    Tactile Raconteur

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    • Originally posted by TexasOrtho View Post
      I'm feeling very strong with the scientific foundations, but definitely need a bit more guidance interacting with my patient during the lessons.

      I sent you a PM with some information on a Feldy teacher in the Houston area (very near the Galleria), which may be useful ( and likely would be in driving distance for you - maybe an hour (?) ), if you just need to see how she handles working with a patient. She teaches both FI privates and also group ATM's.

      Hope it helps.
      Last edited by Curious One; 29-10-2013, 03:25 AM.
      C.O. ( gender: ) - LMT, BS(Anatomy), DC
      Music Fog... pick a song to listen to... you can't go wrong.
      Need relaxation samples for your office? I have made a Deep Relaxation Massage Music Pandora Station and have others that may also be useful - about 8 massage music stations and about 49 other nifty options.

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      • Originally posted by TexasOrtho View Post
        I'm feeling very strong with the scientific foundations, but definitely need a bit more guidance interacting with my patient during the lessons.

        Are the home-based resources on the Achieving Excellence website (or others) worth pursuing in this regard? Any other suggestions are welcomed.
        Looks at Achieving Excellence, I would recommend:
        Moving into Comfort by Mark Reese
        Any of Elizabeth Berringer's
        You can purchase Feldenkrais himself (quality likely variable though due to recording options at the time)
        Eileen Bach-y-Rita Aligning the Body (short and easy to reach to patients)

        In DVDs I would recommend Frank Wildman's Change Your Age.

        I think you can get ideas and modeling on presentation/style from these and good lessons to use in practice.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Dan84 View Post
          As for PT groups: I did something similar some years ago. It was a weird internal struggle between showing interesting things and making sure I wasn't giving them a proto-Feldenkrais training. There was also an element of 'hang on....I spent a lot of time and money learning this stuff ... surely you don't think you can learn how to do this in 2 days and walk away with your Feldenkrais merit badge?".

          That toolbox mentality is thick on the ground.
          You have me laughing. Yes, I see the FM merit badge!

          Originally posted by Dan84 View Post
          Let me know if you figure out a way around that* - it just left me somewhat bitter :/

          *= of course, one way around that is to, in fact, conduct a feldenkrais proto-training. Call it whatver ever you need to (do you research: I doubt the present lingo attached to the method is going to attract many new-comers).

          Taking a look at several successful models, such as DMA, it seems that the multiple level of credentialing, covering set pieces / body regions is the preffered model in this space.
          Yes that would tend to leave one bitter. I am thinking of just trying with a few people who have already crossed the "just give me the facts" border. But even with them, I am suspecting the interest won't be strong enough to get something more sustaining.

          I have no interest in a proto-training. Most of my times is devoted to our Integral Human Gait model and Bones for Life. I did just develop a Mobilizing the Thoracic Spine for Health Above and Below for massage therapists that I could adapt for PTs and actually is probably a better match for PT but truthfully we never get more than few PTs at our workshops. A PT department even hosted us last year and then barely showed up. We filled it with other professionals. So I am not inclined to beat that drum too often.

          We long ago went away from the somatic language to clear learning objectives in PT speak and barely mention Feldenkrais. Still our programs don't call to them either. Once in the workshop, we can capture their attention easily. But on the marketing side, we haven't discovered the magic bean. Or we are unwilling to swallow it which is probably more likely.

          If I manage to get a group started and it seems viable, I will let you know.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by CynthiaAllen View Post
            We long ago went away from the somatic language to clear learning objectives in PT speak and barely mention Feldenkrais. Still our programs don't call to them either. Once in the workshop, we can capture their attention easily. But on the marketing side, we haven't discovered the magic bean. Or we are unwilling to swallow it which is probably more likely.

            If I manage to get a group started and it seems viable, I will let you know.
            Likewise. Barrett seems to have had some success in promoting his work, which I think a lot in the FM community feel a kinship towards. I wonder if/how he's gotten around this particular little snafu of "weekend merit badge, and don't make me think and don't make me do any hard work!".

            You can't believe how...frustrating? heart breaking? irritating? (One of those three, at least) the whole thing was. Or, you probably can.

            I came in excited...and left promising myself "never again". That was three years ago...I'm just about foolish enough now to try again. Maybe.

            I echo your question (which I also asked on page 1).

            "How / what about FM would appeal to PT's? What frequency, length of time, format would you benefit from?"

            PS: As we meander through different issue, I like to go back and look at the view count from time to time. 8000 views. Eight thousand. Soon, I'll get to make my favourite pop-culture / mathematical joke.
            Last edited by Dan84; 29-10-2013, 05:41 PM.
            Dan
            Tactile Raconteur

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            • Saw this posted on a FB page as an example of good FI handling / touch sensitivity / non coerciveness. A little cloying perhaps, but yes - good hands IMHO

              [YT]OPSAgs-exfQ[/YT]
              Dan
              Tactile Raconteur

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Dan84 View Post
                little snafu of "weekend merit badge, and don't make me think and don't make me do any hard work!".

                You can't believe how...frustrating? heart breaking? irritating? (One of those three, at least) the whole thing was. Or, you probably can.
                Yes I can imagine. So sorry for the pain of that experience. I have been fairly lucky. People show up thinking they are in the wrong workshop but by the next day they are mostly glad to be there. Because we haven't offered much that is just a few hours, those who do come are already self selecting to a certain level of interest. I dread getting the more traditional audience even though I feel this is where we need to be.

                Still I have a funny story.

                I am teaching in Indiana. A PT, who is also a runner, is attending this 4 day Bon es for Life training. He refers heavily to my colleagues because "if you want to truly get better you need to continue your therapy by seeing one of them." So this is a motivated guy. Taking a 4 day workshop in a state that had no CE requirements, and he wants some of what these other people he refers to has. But it's a struggle. The days are hard for him personally and professionally (same thing of course). His own movement patterns are deeply entrenched and he finds every movement sequence challenging. So I teach a 5 min miracle process really just for him and his neck pain at the end of the day. Something easy for him to take with him. He runs home and trys it on everyone he find. He comes in the next morning very excited and says "Hey I want some more of those 5 second miracle exercises. " I about fell off my chair in laughter.

                I had really stretched myself to try and meet him with a "5 minute" one and he has already shortened it to "5 seconds." It was like the absolute difference between the two fields encapsulated in that interaction. Somatic education is all about the process and PT is all about the end result. Of course both are right.

                Originally posted by Dan84 View Post
                PS: As we meander through different issue, I like to go back and look at the view count from time to time. 8000 views. Eight thousand. Soon, I'll get to make my favourite pop-culture / mathematical joke.
                Bring it on!

                Comment


                • Flicking off-handedly thru the FB page suggested by Oli, I came across an interesting description of Moshe's 'interview' method.

                  Generally Moshe asked 4 questions: What is your name? How old are you? Are you married? What brings you to me? From that brief 'interview he could glean How the person felt about themselves (image of self) by how they spoke their name, their tone of voice, postural demeanor, eye contact, hand shake...
                  ...
                  He could tell a lot about 'general health' by observing if their chronological age compared with how old they appeared to be by gesture, carriage, etc. He could tell if a person had a healthy sex life by how they answered if they were married or not
                  ...
                  He could tell even more by how they answered what brought the person to him...were the coming as a 'last resort'? Was their verbal answer congruent with their body language? Were they persuaded by someone else, or had they come from their own interest? In other words, how good a candidate were they for his work with them?
                  ...
                  He did not accept everyone...He said to us close to the end of training (paraphrasing) "If you care about your success rate, don't accept someone you don't think can benefit from your working with them. Send them to a colleague you think could have more success with them...you are not going to resonate with every single person who crosses your threshold, but another practitioners very well may be able to help that person a lot...
                  Oli also had an interesting video HERE that I think is worth checking out. Perhaps a good one to discuss?

                  EDIT to embed; link left above for context.

                  [yt]R_4h_QQe5ds[/yt]
                  Last edited by Dan84; 06-11-2013, 07:33 PM.
                  Dan
                  Tactile Raconteur

                  Comment


                  • This is what I wrote re youtube in my intro thread:

                    In the case of someone with "stiff" neck it's gradually introducing movement without fear.

                    All about reducing fear and guarded movement -all movement is gentle easy and pain free to assist this.

                    First hand on head movement is in spine, hips etc not neck -firstly it feels safe and also the attention of turning your head moves away from your neck and into your trunk.

                    Second closer arm turning and looking up and down. Same but new input (arm position and adding new movement looking up and down)

                    Third arms wraps around head -shoulder is brought to head instead of face/head to shoulder -movement of arm shoulder not associated with stiffness/pain esp after previous "warm-ups" then turn is done through trunk etc as well to produce "new" ROM.

                    doing this with someone using humor etc goes a long way too (of course)

                    Just read this thread:
                    http://www.somasimple.com/forums/sho...ght=john+sarno
                    So this is a trick to get you to, without realising it, move yourself under the bed and lie happily, you then find yourself there and perfectly safe (could potentially be used in zimney3pt's example on that thread too).

                    Of course it may still improve your turning without a fear-based stiffness too -then it would be learning new and novel relationships in how you turn your head. The "trick" might also take you past/beyond your previous limited "image" of the movement.

                    Comment


                    • I've really enjoyed reading this thread so far and many things said reflect and sometimes clarify my own thoughts.

                      regarding trainings:
                      One criticism of trainings is:
                      In my training, the main examples or demos of hands on work (FI) was done on a participant of the training by the trainer. It would be reasonable to suggest the trainer has a high degree of influence on the subject and the subject has a high level of investment in a positive (and dramatic/impressive) outcome.
                      There is also a clear shared understanding of the "form" -I have seen trainer get their subjects to do beautiful movements with minimal communication but the subjects will have previously done lessons around the movement so will take cues very well.

                      This is all great but I haven't heard it explicitly "unpacked" and so it can set up unrealistic ideas for what might happen with a client from the general public.

                      I've had a couple of experiences where I, as a subject was asked to "go along" with a demonstrated idea to give a somewhat false impression of the potency of a technique.

                      In one case the trainer was talking and demonstrating how a non coercive touch might compel a subject to move. I asked the trainer in the break what about a resisting subject?
                      She said lets see and the next demo was me as a resisting subject being pulled from my chair -well it didn't happen with soft touch, until the trainer said to me something along the lines of "just come with me a little bit" so then I did move -eventually and out of the chair -because she had told me to move with her. I heard other students exclaim in amazement!

                      In another situation a trainer asked me to show a movements efficacy in a grappling situation -being thrown off someones mount (kinda) -again it wouldn't work and so i was instructed to comply and fall

                      At a BJJ school either of these examples would be laughed at. They prove nothing but the ineffectiveness of a technique unless the subjects are influenced to behave according to the book, and yet this is brushed over.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by oli View Post
                        regarding trainings:
                        One criticism of trainings is:
                        In my training, the main examples or demos of hands on work (FI) was done on a participant of the training by the trainer. It would be reasonable to suggest the trainer has a high degree of influence on the subject and the subject has a high level of investment in a positive (and dramatic/impressive) outcome.
                        I think that's a fair point. We did get to watch one of the trainers go thru an entire session (from start to finish) with someone off the street + discuss it but as you say, this was a limited occurrence.


                        There is also a clear shared understanding of the "form" -I have seen trainer get their subjects to do beautiful movements with minimal communication but the subjects will have previously done lessons around the movement so will take cues very well.

                        This is all great but I haven't heard it explicitly "unpacked" and so it can set up unrealistic ideas for what might happen with a client from the general public.
                        Also fair, I think.

                        I've had a couplerainer was talking and demonstrating how a non coercive touch might compel a subject to move. I asked the trainer in the break what about a resisting subject?
                        She said lets see and the next demo was me as a resisting subject being pulled from my chair -well it didn't happen with soft touch, until the trainer said to me something along the lines of "just come with me a little bit" so then I did move -eventually and out of the chair -because she had told me to move with her. I heard other students exclaim in amazement!

                        In another situation a trainer asked me to show a movements efficacy in a grappling situation -being thrown off someones mount (kinda) -again it wouldn't work and so i was instructed to comply and fall
                        I partially agree with these. Yes, the demos can be misleading to a naive audience. OTOH, when taken as intended (demonstrations of a particular idea), they can be useful illustrations. Actually, that's a bit like your bone alignment thread. Problems arise when the audience can't distinguish the limitations / context of the demonstrations (and of course...if people unscrupulously take advantage thereof).

                        In terms those two particular demos: of course, one can 'break' the demo (for example, sliding up into a mounted triangle); probably that would be fair play if these were actual martial demos in a BJJ context. However, as an example of the kind of power that can be generated through correctly sequenced triple extension (which is probably what that was about?), I tend to mitigate my response.

                        A part of this reminds me of Lulu Hurst. Lulu's feats were a kind of genius...but at the end of the day, I don't think anyone would have put her up against Jack Dempsey (who's treatise on the drop step actually utlized some of the same principles)
                        Last edited by Dan84; 07-11-2013, 11:14 PM.
                        Dan
                        Tactile Raconteur

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                        • Listening to Butler's recent interview, I was struck again at how much in common GMI has with ATM.

                          Many, many ATM's play around with left-right discrimination and many, many ATM's use visualization of movement. (None use mirror box therapy to the best of my knowledge, though there are a few that use eye-patches and other visual tricks)

                          Heck, even one of our party pieces (hands out in front of you, cross at wrists, back of the hands touching, roll so palm to palm, interlace fingers, bring hands towards you, then see if you can move for example the left middle finger) is surely an example of left-right discrimination.
                          Last edited by Dan84; 08-11-2013, 06:54 PM.
                          Dan
                          Tactile Raconteur

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                          • As this thread ekes ever closer to 9000 views, I reminded of one of my favourite analogies for FI.

                            Usually when someone asks me "How the heck did you do that?" I say "It's a lot like magic". Some people are satisfied by that...but for others (if I think it will help) I go on and explain what that means.

                            [YT]3R3TKXSpwqw[/YT]

                            In light of the above (and numerous threads by Barrett mining the same vein), I think it's time to change my signature line.
                            Last edited by Dan84; 23-11-2013, 11:14 AM.
                            Dan
                            Tactile Raconteur

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                            • Originally posted by Jo Bowyer View Post
                              The organisation that produced this bothers me.

                              http://whatenlightenment.blogspot.co...age-of_21.html
                              It was the only easy synopsis I could find. The text, is well a text. An $80 book that is pretty long and sometimes dreadfully detailed and not at all orientated about spirituality per se. Just human value development of which how spirituality develops is part and parcel.

                              Comment


                              • I think you need a certainly level of familiarity (or perhaps, immaturity) to appreciate this. I suspect a few might get the joke.



                                Given what we know about internet discussion patterns, I can only hope that still waters run deep. I'll keep inviting others to say something.

                                BTW, recent discussions on magic (as in the skilled act, not supernatural woo woo) reminded me of something on Jeff Haller's site:

                                Once upon a time a man was contemplating the ways in which Nature operates, and he discovered, because of his concentration and application, how fire could be made.

                                This man was called Nour. He decided to travel from one community to another, showing people his discovery.

                                Nour passed the secret to many groups of people. Some took advantage of the knowledge. Others drove him away, thinking that he must be dangerous, before they had time to understand how valuable this discovery could be to them. Finally, a tribe before
                                which he demonstrated became so panic-stricken that they set about him and killed him, being convinced that he was a demon.

                                Centuries passed. The first tribe which had learned about fire reserved the secret for their priests, who remained in affluence and power while the people froze.

                                The second tribe forgot the art and worshiped instead the instruments. The third worshiped a likeness of Nour himself, because was he who had taught them. The fourth retained the story of the making of fire in their legends: some believed them, some did not. The fifth community really did use fire, and this enabled them to be warmed, to cook their food, and to manufacture all kinds of useful articles.

                                After many, many years, a wise man and a small band of his disciples were traveling through the lands of these tribes. The disciples were amazed at the variety of rituals which they encountered; and one and all said to their teacher:

                                ‘But all these procedures are in fact related to the making of fire, nothing else. We should reform these people!'

                                The teacher said: ‘Very well, then. We shall restart our journey. By the end of it, those who survive will know the real problems and how to approach them.'

                                When they reached the first tribe, the band was hospitably received. They priests invited the travelers to attend their religious ceremony, the making of fire. When it was over, and the tribe was in a state of excitement at the event which they had witnessed, the master said: ‘Does anyone wish to speak?'

                                The first disciple said: ‘In the cause of Truth I feel myself constrained to say something to these people.'

                                ‘If you will do so at your own risk, you may do so,' said the master.

                                Now the disciple stepped forward in the presence of the tribal chief and his priests and said: ‘I can perform the miracle which you take to be a special manifestation of deity. If I do so, will you accept that you have been in error for so many years?'

                                But the priests cried: ‘Seize him!' and the man was taken away never to be seen again.

                                The travelers went to the next territory where the second tribe were worshipping the instruments of fire-making. Again a disciple volunteered to try to bring reason to the community.

                                With the permission of the master, he said: ‘I beg permission to speak to you as reasonable people. You are worshipping the means whereby something may be done, not even the thing itself. Thus you are suspending the advent of its usefulness. I know the reality that lies at
                                the basis of this ceremony.

                                This tribe was composed of more reasonable people. But they said to the disciple: ‘You are welcome as a traveler and a stranger in our midst. But, as a stranger, foreign to our history and customs, you cannot understand what we are doing.

                                You make a mistake. Perhaps, even, you are trying to take away or alter our religion. We therefore decline to listen to you.'

                                The travelers moved on.

                                When they arrived in the land of the third tribe, they found before every dwelling an idol representing Nour, the original fire-maker.

                                The third disciple addressed the chiefs of the tribe:

                                ‘This idol represents a man, who represents a capacity, which can be used.'

                                ‘This may be so,' answered the Nour-worshippers, ‘but the penetration of the real secret is only for the few.'

                                ‘It is only for the few who understand, not for those who refuse to face certain facts,' said the third disciple.

                                ‘This is rank heresy, and from a man who does not even speak our language correctly, and is not a priest ordained in our faith,' muttered the priests. And he could make no headway.

                                The band continued their journey, and arrived in the land of the fourth tribe. Now a fourth disciple stepped forward in the assembly of the people.

                                ‘The story of making fire is true, and I know how it may be done,' he said.

                                Confusion broke out within the tribe, which split into various factions. Some said: ‘This may be true, and if it is, we want to find out how to make fire.' When these people were examined by the master and his followers however, it was found that
                                most of them were anxious to use fire-making for personal advantage, and did not realize that it was something for human progress.

                                So deep hand the distorted legends penetrated into the minds of most people that those who thought that they might in fact represent truth were often unbalanced ones, who could not have made fire even if they had been shown how.

                                There was another faction, who said: ‘Of course the legends are not true. This man is just trying to fool us, to make a place for himself here.'

                                And a further faction said: ‘We prefer the legends as they are, for they are the very mortar of our cohesion. If we abandon them, and we find that this new interpretation is useless, what will become of our community then?'

                                And there were other points of view, as well.

                                So the party traveled on, until they reached the lands of the fifth community, where fire-making was commonplace, and where other preoccupations faced them.

                                The master said to his disciples:

                                "You have to learn how to teach, for Man does not want to be taught. First of all, you will have to teach people how to learn. And before that you have to teach them that there is still something to be learned. They imagine that they are ready to learn.

                                But they want to learn what they imagine is to be learned, not what they have first to learn. When you have learned all this, then you can devise the way to teach. Knowledge without special capacity to teach is not the same as knowledge and capacity
                                Last edited by Dan84; 23-11-2013, 06:51 AM.
                                Dan
                                Tactile Raconteur

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