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  • #76
    Originally posted by mpnyo View Post
    If you really want to learn more about the Feldenkrais Method, pick up Jeff Haller's Learning Self-Organization DVD set.
    Originally posted by Dan84 View Post
    I'll invite Robert here; it seems like he might have some useful insights.
    Thanks for this info and the link. I had hoped to take the Feldenkrais training in my city in 2014, via the FeldNet group, however, they have cancelled it. Since I do not have time to take out of my practice to travel for the extensive training modules, I am hoping to do some self study. I have all of the books by Moshe Feldenkrais, although I have not been an avid "book" reader in years, so it will take some discipline to get back into that. The video suggestion will certainly be useful for a visual learner such as myself.
    Last edited by Curious One; 27-09-2013, 08:41 PM. Reason: - add link of where to find Jeff Haller's DVD set
    C.O. ( gender: ) - LMT, BS(Anatomy), DC
    Music Fog... pick a song to listen to... you can't go wrong.
    Need relaxation samples for your office? I have made a Deep Relaxation Massage Music Pandora Station and have others that may also be useful - about 8 massage music stations and about 49 other nifty options.

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    • #77
      More Feldenkrais learning resources please.

      Thanks for the resources listed so far. I would love to increase my feldenkrais learning resources. Please keep them coming, I am not all too keen on taking expensive and time-consuming seminars taught by people whose teaching style/acumen does not jive with my learning style/EBM expectations.

      I had a feldenkrais practitioner as an instructor in my massage program; good stuff, but I wanted to punch myself in the face over his style of info delivery
      Tim Irving DC, MS, LMT

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      • #78
        Well, while we wait for Cynthia to deign us with her opinion (should the invitation be engraved or embossed?), I'll chime in that I've recently begun giving FI's to cancer patients with chronic pain. If you want to talk about pain issues, come back to me after your patient looks you in the eye and says "I just want to die. The pain is too much. Do you think they'll let me die?".

        No clinical prediction rules for that one, huh?

        I'll write more later
        Last edited by Dan84; 28-09-2013, 07:29 AM.
        Dan
        Tactile Raconteur

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        • #79
          Agreed. Often that's the only/best thing to do.

          What I find interesting is how minimalist things can become. The last patient I had, I pretty much just rocked back and forth, palpated along the spine and then held her head and neck. Actually, she was pretty interesting in that ideomotor movement appeared as soon as I held her neck and did nothing.

          She also dozed off for a bit, which I will take as a small mercy.
          Dan
          Tactile Raconteur

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          • #80
            Back to basics

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9Ko7U1pLlg

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14gWirURq6I
            Jo Bowyer
            Chartered Physiotherapist Registered Osteopath.
            "Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,there is a field. I'll meet you there." Rumi

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            • #81
              Originally posted by Dan84 View Post
              ideomotor movement appeared as soon as I held her neck and did nothing.
              There was ideomotor movement in your hands too.
              Jo Bowyer
              Chartered Physiotherapist Registered Osteopath.
              "Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,there is a field. I'll meet you there." Rumi

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              • #82
                Originally posted by Tirving View Post
                Thanks for the resources listed so far. I would love to increase my feldenkrais learning resources. Please keep them coming...


                I don't have a useful "all-in-one" link, but I found a few items that looked beneficial. Not being a Feldy, it's likely pretty basic. I like to link up bits when I can, so it makes it easier for the next person who comes along to a thread. If they are like me, they tend to be a little clueless, yet interested and with limited time, so it helps!
                • Easy link to hunt up Feldenkrais books on Amazon.
                • Bibliography from the International Feldenkrais Federation.
                • Houston Feldenkrais has a list link for books.
                • For those in the UK... The Feldenkrais Guild UK has a list of books, etc.

                His martial arts books are:
                C.O. ( gender: ) - LMT, BS(Anatomy), DC
                Music Fog... pick a song to listen to... you can't go wrong.
                Need relaxation samples for your office? I have made a Deep Relaxation Massage Music Pandora Station and have others that may also be useful - about 8 massage music stations and about 49 other nifty options.

                Comment


                • #83
                  on the topic of resources

                  If I had to name the top three Feldenkrais resources out there, they would be (in no particular order): Jeff Haller, Jeff Haller, and Jeff Haller.

                  But Andrew Gibbons is also an exceptional Feldenkrais teacher based out of NYC. He has a series of workshops that can be purchased on his site.

                  And Ryan Nagy has put out some very inexpensive classic Feldenkrais lessons on Amazon.

                  There is also this from the man himself. I've only seen parts of it, but it seems like his most earnest attempt to explain what in the world he was doing.

                  I'm curious to learn how people respond to any of these resources. I hope something valuable can come of it.

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Dan84 View Post

                    Like you, I'm *strongly* looking into PT, as it seems to me that the most successful Feldenkraisers are PT's. Reading this board though, I'm walking lightly with that idea, too.
                    Somewhere here there was a request to talk about Bones for Life. I haven't been able to find it in a timely manner in this long thread so I guess I will just jump in anywhere.

                    I am a Feldenkrais Practitioner and Bones for Life Trainer. I want to say just a couple of things about somatic education approaches which my modalities, as does the Anat Baniel Method and Alexander Technique, fit into. They are first and foremost methods of learning to allow people to become who they can and want to be. We help people learn about themselves and their possibilities as opposed to treating.

                    I get a few referrals from PT's. It seems clear to them that we do something different. I also occasionally get asked by PTs to give feedback on what they can do differently in their sessions. So our lens can be helpful in a treatment setting. Although the Feldenkrais approach of "do nothing that hurts serves wells," I sometimes find a PT perspective helpful about what I am doing with a client in terms of contraindications or in constructing more helpful lessons. So if we are inclined, there can be good collaboration.

                    However, I can also say this of working with elementary teachers or psychologists. I also collaborate with these professions on shared clients.

                    I have read enough of Soma Simple to know that the moderators on this forum are far more critical about the field of Physical Therapy than any of my Feldenkrais trainers were. My trainers were equal opportunity critics of the cultural mainstream. PT, OT, psychology, teaching all had their moments in the spotlight. Sometimes I think it was valid and sometime I feel it was immature.

                    I have had the chance to "co-treat" by invitation (the PT field's word, not mine) in a Physical Therapy department a fair amount in the last few years, I have new insights in both directions. On one hand I have a growing appreciate for the challenges of that job. And on the other, I have seen more mindless 5 sets of 10 than I care to see. Still, it is clear to me that on the whole, I and the physical therapist, do different things even if we could be helpful to much of the same clientele. Or course with Soma Simple leadership and items such as the new function driven treatments, major change appears to be taking place that will allow PT to evole to an even higher place.

                    Now, Bones for Life.... Ruthy Alon is a senior trainer in the Feldenkrais Method so she took the principles of FM and tried to come up with an approach that is more directly and palatable for the masses. Very few people are going to be comfortable hanging out in the mystery of the Feldenkrais Method.

                    Bones for Life is a narrow but fairly deep work using, alignment, and rhythm to achieve higher function within gravity. It focuses on making weight bearing efficient to support walking, running, exercise, etc. It is an movement protocol of 90 processes (not exercises). Once learned, it can take from 5 minutes to 35-40 minutes for each process. So, unlike the endless number of lessons in the Feldenkrais Method, most of which are 45 to 60 minutes long, the work is more transportable to a wider variety of environments including health clubs. However it is still vastly different than exercise so I doubt it will become widely popular. But who knows. It is a very young work--less than 15 years old.

                    It is 200+ hours of training. There is NO hands on component to the work. And it is impossible to compare a 200 hr training to a 1000 hr training to a 7 year degree program. I wouldn't call any of them better than the other. I would simply say they are all different animals and deserve their own look in their own right.

                    My partners in offering training programs have been two high quality physical therapists who also trained with Ruthy Alon. They know of you Barrett. You may know of them, Denise Deig and Carol Montgomery both of Indiana. I think maybe your old home state? Like you they have remained in PT but have had more than their share of concerns about the field.

                    Over the past 8 years I have trained a few physical therapists in the basics of the work, although not as many as I would like. It is a much bigger commitment in training than most can wrap their minds around. All have been impressed once exposed to it in-depth. Those PT's that have continued on to certification level are typically already Feldenkrais Practitioners.

                    I offer the last two paragraphs as a for what it is worth--which may not be much because we must all make up our own minds.

                    I currently have one DPT student who is thinking of doing her capstone project using Bones for Life in some way. So maybe we will get a little bit of a better looksie at it from a research perspective in a year or so.

                    I find the work very easy to translate into the P.T. environment. It is also really easy for the therapist/teacher and patient/client to get the functional connections in Bones for Life. In the Feldenkrais Method, again mystery is a big part of the learning process. That is not a criticism of the Feldenkrais work, just a reality. I believe at a certain point in human evolution engagement with mystery and trusting a process is very important.

                    Maybe the above is helpful.

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Barrett Dorko View Post
                      Okay Cynthia, you're invited.

                      Perhaps that isn't clear enough, but for that I may need some help.
                      Now I finally find the thread. So that I just tacked on the answer somewhere else. Hopefully it won't cause a problem.

                      Your provocative style sometimes annoys me Barrett. I responded with that annoyance. I don't read this forum these days. In part because it is often more abrasive than I find helpful. However, I know these forums are needed. There are only a 200 Bones for Life teachers in the U.S. How many of those 200 are following this forum? Actually reading it? It couldn't be many.

                      I believe I changed my settings to receive email notices for a while from you. So hopefully once you or anyone reads and posts in response to my post, I will get notified.

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Dan84 View Post
                        I've invited a few Feldy's here. Maybe some will show up. I don't want this to be a one man show.

                        IMHO Feldenkrais is the Sumatran orangutan of HPSG: wonderful but critically endangered. I'm proposing SS as a kind of wild life preserve.

                        Now this has my attention Dan (although I missed or am not skilled enough to know what HPSG stands for) I don't know what is going to become of the Feldenkrais work. It is quite a challenge to consider. I have long been struck by what one of my colleagues and PT Russ Hall, shared. When he started studying with Feldenkrais in 85 he already knew that "this is what physical therapy is meant to become" in actual practice. He went on to say in an interview with me that back then he had already figured out on his own, that just as Moshe was positing, there were no orthopedic problems but all would be better handled if thought of as neurological.

                        Having said that, if the Feldenkrais work were to be subsumed by Physical Therapy it will no longer be the Feldenkrais Method.

                        I feel this is illustrated best by Moshe's intention that the work could be used in most any profession. I used it as a manager while still in healthcare. It didn't have the look of traditional Awareness Through Movement lessons, but the principles were there and I used those principles to construct staff meetings, staff play, and in figuring out how to help employees thrive.

                        FM fits beautiful into the educational environment. I had the priviledge of co-teaching a class for secondary teachers at Xavier University a couple of years ago on mainstreaming movement and awareness into the class room. From the instructors' perspective it was as much about using organic learning principles all day long. Those that attended ate it up. However, the next year we couldn't get enough participants to hold the class. (Sigh, we all know that routine don't we?). My co-instructor was an Occupational Therapist who specializes in working with children with Autism. She has trained in the Bones for Life work with me and is exuberant in how it has changed her thinking and outcomes.

                        The Feldenkrais approach fits beautiful into athletic training programs including musicians, a different kind of athlete. And not simply as injury prevention or rehab. For the musician it can help produce a better quality of performance and sound and greater connection with the audience. Likewise it has a fit in mental health. These are the easy interfaces to develop. Management, such as the one I undertook, is more challenging for most to put it into action, but not impossible. People do share with me all the time how it changes the way they do they work in whatever their profession and it isn't just their physical movement patterns that change.

                        For me, the larger question is how can the FM be used to support these professions and perhaps fill in a missing link in the understanding of how humans develop and thrive. In the case of this forum, how can we make the work accessible so it can inform the field of physical therapy? This appears to be the interest in FM in this discussion thread, if I am following the interest correctly. And correct me if I am wrong.

                        Another colleague of mine has the unique experience while studying to become a PT of being taught a Feldenkrais Awareness Through Movement class every day. She said that of her graduating class only two of them went on to work in traditional PT environments. Most added some kind of certification such as the Feldenkrais work to their resume. Perhaps this is a way it could unfold. So that learning from the inside out is part of the PT training.

                        Okay enough. You folks have been talking about this topic for months so you may be talked out.

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                        • #87
                          Hi Cynthia

                          Thanks for chiming in. I meant to reply earlier to this but got waylaid by house move.

                          Originally posted by CynthiaAllen View Post
                          Now this has my attention Dan (although I missed or am not skilled enough to know what HPSG stands for)
                          It's a Diane-ism (Human Primate Social Groomer). It's a description with a lot of nuance, I think. I like it quite a-lot and consider it up there with Feldyisms like 'Feldenkrais is Yiddish Yoga'

                          I don't know what is going to become of the Feldenkrais work.
                          I'm not sure, either. I don't think the seemingly isolationist/close door policy is working very well.

                          I have long been struck by what one of my colleagues and PT Russ Hall, shared. When he started studying with Feldenkrais in 85 he already knew that "this is what physical therapy is meant to become" in actual practice. He went on to say in an interview with me that back then he had already figured out on his own, that just as Moshe was positing, there were no orthopedic problems but all would be better handled if thought of as neurological.
                          :thumbs_up

                          Having said that, if the Feldenkrais work were to be subsumed by Physical Therapy it will no longer be the Feldenkrais Method.
                          I have an issue with that line of thinking in so much that it propagates a 'us vs them' mentality - and as soon as we do that, no one plays nicely together.

                          I realise you're likely trying to say 'well, Feldenkrais is more than just therapy, it's about human development and potential'. Fair enough, I suppose...but I can't help but feel that 'going it alone' has not done much good.

                          More to the point, I think the (perceived) message is that one is lesser than the other. I think that's a somewhat narrow view, given the breadth of the PT (and other) professions.

                          I feel this is illustrated best by Moshe's intention that the work could be used in most any profession
                          Yes, I've heard that line of argument before - but where are all (any?) of the references, acknowledgement & discussions? If the utility is broad...why don't more people know about it?

                          Certainly, FM fits in many places...but seems to stick nowhere. Ostensibly, it would/could/should stick fairly well in the PT world but I suspect FM's covert/overt bias against 'just therapy' aggravates a potential audience.
                          Dan
                          Tactile Raconteur

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                          • #88
                            PS: Not sure if I mentioned this before, but Nobuo Noguchi has a wonderful youtube channel (spanning some 500, 1-10 minute silent videos) illustrating various FM manual handling and ATM strategies. Most have english descriptions, too. Quite a useful resource for the curious.

                            EDIT: This is quite a clever example / teaching exercise. Notice the way he really pays attention to the object and its construction...and explores its inherent properties...rather than trying to make it do something it doesn't. Most of all, watch his hand (quality). Clever.

                            [yt]XFPZ3CO4hYU[/yt]

                            You can see the application of this kind of felt-sense to some of these demos

                            [yt]ztW4oGsO_ak[/yt]

                            One of things I use to do (and should do more of) is play around with the skeleton like this. Inert as it may be, it can teach you a lot about what does and doesn't make sense (kinematically), self body use etc.

                            I'm not sure if this is a unique feature of FM, but a lot of attention is paid to weight, flow, quality, novelty and linkage. You may note in the above (skeleton) example that the chap is "working on the ankle and knee joint" and at times is rolling the head, moving the arms etc. A goodly part of this is build up a fuller picture of how force can initiate or transfer to an area such as to give a person the experience of something outside of their normal habit.

                            I'd be curious to know if anyone watches the above and then tries it on a friend or patient. Bearing in mind that the results may be unpredictable (and that you really do need to calibrate the handling relative to the above notions of weight, effort, quality etc rather than attempting to coerce a result) it might be a curious experiment in 'doing nothing to get something' !

                            Interestingly, on the topic of pain, I was once told by a FM trainer "We care about pain...but we don't care about pain". I initially though "what a shitty thing to say" ( so typically FM inscrutable koan bullshit), but a few years on - and thanks to SS - can milk some wisdom from that. Yes, people are in pain - so empathy and care is needed - but at the same time, the very nature of this kind of non-coercive handling speaks well to pains resolution; ergo, do what you do.
                            Last edited by Dan84; 06-10-2013, 07:32 PM.
                            Dan
                            Tactile Raconteur

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by CynthiaAllen View Post
                              Now this has my attention Dan (although I missed or am not skilled enough to know what HPSG stands for)
                              HPSG = human primate social groomer.
                              Diane
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                              "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

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                              • #90
                                Feldenkrais and PT fits (or not)

                                Happy move Dan (I hope).

                                Originally posted by Dan84 View Post
                                It's a Diane-ism (Human Primate Social Groomer).
                                Yes, it is very appropriate. Fits right in with Porges' theory and I agree Feldenkrais compatible too. Nice term Diane!

                                Originally posted by Dan84 View Post
                                I'm not sure, either. I don't think the seemingly isolationist/close door policy is working very well.
                                I can get very ranty about the evolution of the Feldenkrais work. I have tried to switch from rant to what I can do about it the last few years. We formed a nonprofit where the emphasis is to offer training programs that actually have CEUs for physical, occupational, and massage therapy and to treat the fields and the participants with respect and welcome their knowledge base. As an example of how we do that, we have a developed an Integral Human Gait model which draws on a wide variety of fields. We use somatic education as the experiential piece for application, but the theory has its roots in osteopathy, PT, OT, anthropology, philosophy, etc. We try to give credit to and there is plenty of credit to pass around.

                                Also just one thing to offer about the closed door nature of the materials which I believe I read somewhere in this thread. Moshe's work is owned by his family. Some of the lack of availability has to do with his family and not all of it is related to the Feldenkrais Guild climate.


                                Originally posted by Dan84 View Post
                                I have an issue with that line of thinking in so much that it propagates a 'us vs them' mentality - and as soon as we do that, no one plays nicely together.
                                I agree that has been the case, but I don't see any reason why I have to continue it. I feel I and my teaching partner Carol Montgomery are doing a pretty good darn job in this respect. But, it is a drop in the bucket. AND it is painstaking to get a PT in the door to study with us even with our attempts to collaborate and make the work extremely accessible with plenty of lecture to do with the experiential.


                                Originally posted by Dan84 View Post
                                I realize you're likely trying to say 'well, Feldenkrais is more than just therapy, it's about human development and potential'. Fair enough, I suppose...but I can't help but feel that 'going it alone' has not done much good.
                                Yes, I agree it hasn't lead to much so far. Collaboration is necessary. To collaborate, a person or a movement has to have enough solid footing to feel they are in a position to do so. I believe some of us have reached that point and are moving in that direction. I study Spiral Dynamics and Ken Wilber's integral philosophy work as a way of understanding human and cultural development. This has lead me to seeing much of what has happened in the Feldenkrais community as "age-appropriate."


                                Originally posted by Dan84 View Post
                                More to the point, I think the (perceived) message is that one is lesser than the other. I think that's a somewhat narrow view, given the breadth of the PT (and other) professions.
                                I believe that perceived message is passed back and forth by both "sides." Or maybe it is projection by both parties. I agree there is a breadth to PT and other professions. Feldenkrais has a depth and is more of a foundation to lean on. The Feldenkrais work is simply the organic learning process. In some ways it is no big whoop. In other ways it is the illusive obvious that Moshe so brilliantly switches on through Awareness Through Movement or Functional Integration.

                                Originally posted by Dan84 View Post
                                Certainly, FM fits in many places...but seems to stick nowhere. Ostensibly, it would/could/should stick fairly well in the PT world but I suspect FM's covert/overt bias against 'just therapy' aggravates a potential audience.
                                I agree with you it is a point of potential aggravation. The action of differentiation can lead to integration or bias or chaos. Still I have heard plenty of that kind of bias against the PT field by those who are PTs. As always it is more acceptable for a tribe to criticize itself than to have someone from another tribe do it.

                                I like what a PT told me some years ago. "Cynthia, you only get to see the people that PT has failed. We actually do help a lot of people." That has stuck with me. And I know realize that somewhere someone is getting to see the people that I have "failed." It isn't good to make broad brush strokes off of such limited data but probably inevitable.

                                Just curious, but why is it that the Alexander Technique isn't the approach being discussed here? Are PT's not aware of it? Or not as interested?

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