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  • Originally posted by wicked slow View Post
    " Do I look like I have a plan!"
    Reminds me of my old trainer. DZB by any chance?


    • Originally posted by mpnyo View Post
      I thought it got waived at Amherst by Moshe Feldenkrais himself.
      Just to follow up on this with some actual documentation, here's a sample of one of the Amherst advertisements from Feldenkrais's last training:

      A couple comments:
      1. "3, and possibly 4, consecutive summers"? Feldenkrais didn't know what he was going to do either, and he never got to finish making it up as he went along before his health failed him and his assistants took over. Keep in mind that this training formed the basis for all modern Feldenkrais Guild trainings.
      2. This was expensive. $2k in 1980 is like $5,700 today. Over 4 summers, that's $20,280. So you need an extra $20k lying around and the freedom to take off summers…and after that sacrifice you get "professional status as a Feldenkrais practitioner"… So he really does seem to be envisioning this as a stand-alone profession, which was a leap of faith at that time that I think history demonstrates was off the mark.

      For the early American students, I can absolutely see the temptation to do what they did. You gain legal control of the service marks. People are willing to shell out a bunch of money for very little in return so you structure new trainings on the one that just happened. Tell people it will all come together at the end. At the end, people have sunk a bunch of money and discover they haven't learned what they thought they would. So you reassure them that they just don't appreciate how much they've learned. How they know so much about the Feldenkrais Method ("You only have to know more than your student!"). It's all hugs and good times and self-congratulatory speeches. Cash the checks. Bring a new batch in for another 4 year training. Sell advanced trainings to the struggling graduates who still have the time and money for it.

      It's a living, I guess.


      • I don't want to throw anyone under the bus. Even with its failures and warts I am glad I did it, so I'll leave it as is, it really wouldn't matter who it was, the mentality that led to the answer is unfortunately pervasive.

        Have to agree with you, well said. It has been something to watch a group being told there is no structure, and the power of this kind of thinking and process, all of a sudden have to adhere to a structure as they invite the public in for handling. The anxiety of the trainers and the trainees is unfortunately palpable in the air.

        I have met some good people, enjoy the work, enjoy the handling and the practice of it, so all in all it was worth the time. I never did it as a profession training though so really feel for people who are trying to redirect their life with it.


        Chad Hardin PT, GCFP


        • I'm conflicted about my training. One the one hand, it was profoundly, personally enriching. On the other hand, I think I barely made back my course fees ($20-30K) over the last 10 years. If I'd relied on FM to make a living, I'd be dead by now.

          Fortunately, I work in a co-aligned career, so the skillsets aren't entirely wasted....but a lot of my classmates have chalked up their FM training as a pleasurable experience leading to (perhaps) a diverting hobby.

          Bluntly put, FPTP is not a good ROI if one does not have some avenue to plug those skills into, above and beyond being a GCFP. Which is a shame, because "the technology" is fantastic.

          I'll be curious to hear how Wicked Slow and Mpnyo fold the skills back into what they do (if that is their intention).
          Last edited by Dan84; 29-04-2015, 01:09 PM.
          Tactile Raconteur


          • Hi Dan,

            So the setting for me is a small private clinic in rural US. Very general practice and very community oriented. By that meaning I see a lot people I work with outside of the clinic setting.

            I rarely do full FI work, only by request outside of work hours, and I don't get many requests at this time. I do lots of smaller FI/handling in clinic though. It is my preferred way of handling along with lots of superficial skin work. For me the most learning has been attention to my own organization while handling, pretty sure I have found something that will keep me interested now for the rest of my life. It is like skiing to me now, different every run.

            I teach 2 ATM classes a week outside of work hours in a new space here at our clinic. I use lots of ATM variations in clinic. My experience with self discovery has greatly influenced my relationship with myself and my ability to be dynamic with movement education to fit my clients. While no one is outwardly interested in what I am doing with regard to fellow employee's I have watched as they have done similar things and have attended ATM class more often. It has greatly enhanced my ability to find a connection for people, locus of control and all that good stuff.

            Once I am done with training and have some breathing room in my life again I will be bartering riding lessons and teaching ATM for a local equestrian center and equine therapy practice along with a local skiing program. I am hopeful to re connect with my university alma mater and give back to my rowing program via ATM too.

            I don't advertise the FM, I have info here at the clinic via small pamphlet and will always take time to talk with interested people. It has been an ebb and flow thing, I assume it will always be so.

            While I have struggled with the format of the training and battled with the notion of worth and woo, I have learned a great deal. MF's writings resonated with me and I have found something outside of skiing that gives me great internal insight. It was a great catalyst for self learning beyond movement too. I get the woo hatred, but it pushed me to put the sensations into my own words and it continues to evolve. Add in the friendships and a new life long friend I have no problem with the expense. I wish it didn't feel like they were killing so much time of spending time on a soapbox but sales must be low. I think there a variety of ways people can get the same development, it just so happens that this was mine. Looking forward to the next journey already.


            Chad Hardin PT, GCFP


            • Jeff Haller Article - "Challenges".

              First sentence, to give you an idea of the article:
              I was asked by the editors of feldenkrais zeit to write an article on how I view the training of practitioners. ...
              Last edited by Curious One; 26-08-2015, 05:49 PM.
              C.O. ( gender: ) - LMT, BS(Anatomy), DC
              Music Fog... pick a song to listen to... you can't go wrong.
              Need relaxation samples for your office? I have made a Deep Relaxation Massage Music Pandora Station and have others that may also be useful - about 8 massage music stations and about 49 other nifty options.


              • Well, in that vein, let me share two new FM videos I stumbled across. Both are kind of watch and do along with sort of things.


                Tactile Raconteur


                • I feel "Feldenkrais Method" is like brand death, for a variety of reasons. If you could wave a magic wand and rename the things, what would you name it? I'm fond of "clinical somatics" (because the word clinical is sticky), except Hanna TMd that.

                  Functional is good to (eg: functional movement screen).

                  I feel like a three part name (functional movement screen) with a simple acronym (FMS) is part of the human catnip formula but I can't crack the rest of the code. Any thoughts? This is for a course I'm putting together
                  Last edited by Dan84; 27-08-2015, 01:06 PM.
                  Tactile Raconteur


                  • I AM

                    Image Adjusting Movement

                    I just stuck with the feldenkrais name and ATM in my area. It was all going to sound bizarre here to everyone anyway. Might as well go all in.

                    Doing more FI now that I am "official" outside of my PT work week. Word is getting out. Starting my after school program in Nov at my daughter's elementary school, should be a fun crowd to move with.
                    Chad Hardin PT, GCFP


                    • Recent presentations by Deborah Bowes, DPT @ Stanford University Back Pain Education Day.


                      Jump to 3hrs 33mins if that doesn't link properly.

                      "The Feldenkrais Method is a learning model...a biopsychosocial model of working with yourself".
                      Tactile Raconteur


                      • Chiming in on my take on the trainings...

                        I'm a year into my Feldenkrais training. Before starting the program, I'd been taking classes and private sessions in the method for two years, anywhere from 1-5 times a week, and several workshops, from a wide variety of practitioners. I know a couple seasoned practitioners socially, and had a pretty decent notion of "what this might all be about" before starting the training. I've also pretty thoroughly reconfigured myself over the years. And I've worked as a personal trainer, in a field where people CLAIM to be able to do the things Feldenkrais does, but are rarely particularly effective, resorting mostly to parlor tricks.

                        So let's say that I arrived very much "primed" for the experience.

                        The variety of students in class is wide. VERY wide. Some people grasp a LOT of nuance and ask really pointed, insightful questions. Others are much more green to the concept.

                        The caveat with this kind of learning is that it seems MUCH more effective if you come onto discoveries on your own. So the trainers open doors for you. A LOT of doors. But most of the time, people don't even realize those doors have been opened. People are very much primed for "academic learning", and think that they'll be told the answers eventually via some set curriculum. But the way this training seems structured is a lot more in the way of subtle riddles. Once you realize that it's in riddles, you can get a LOT out of it.

                        For example, in Feldenkrais's book "Embodied Wisdom," he says something to the effect of "If you ever want to really know yourself with a perception-altering experience, blindfold yourself at home for three hours."

                        So I did it.

                        And damn. Mind blown, in so many ways. The first hour was pretty humdrum, going around the house trying to make myself a snack and so on. But then two things set in: boredom, and some notion in my body that "this is something you'll have to get used to". And then I noticed all sorts of ways that I could hear and feel things, and my whole relationship with objects in the house changed. I would feel things with the back of my hands and feet. Climbing under and through things was immensely pleasurable. I wouldn't go around things, as over them was much more efficient. Completely blind, I was DANCING throughout the apartment. And when I took the blindfold off, the visuals did not at ALL match the sensory map of the apartment I'd created for myself in the preceding three hours, showing me that there's a significant disconnect between the two.

                        I shared that experience with the class the next day, and said that I *HIGHLY RECOMMEND* it as possibly the most important thing you could ever do to get a grasp of how your senses and body map can reorganize themselves.

                        And everyone oohed and aahed. And to this day, a year later, not a single soul has tried it. Not even the trainers. Some might have done it for twenty minutes at some time, which doesn't get the desired effect (hence Feldenkrais recommending three hours).

                        This kind of thing happens ALL THE TIME in the training, and once you see that there are possibilities, you can take them left and right. It becomes a meta-training. I'll sit out a lesson sometimes and watch how a trainer's phrasing and word choice helps or hinders people's movement. They recommend all sorts of readings and resources, but mandate none of them, such that it's up to you to go after them.

                        Essentially, it's up to you to do the learning, and the trainings serve as a sort of crucible for it, if you allow it to be. If all you ever do is come to the training sessions and do the things they tell you to do, you'll probably get some basic level of skill in it. But not that much.

                        I liken it to the art school I went to for my masters in music. They had some top-notch faculty and an amazing breadth of course offerings, and a ton of support for independent projects. And the academic standards were extremely lax. You could do nothing but smoke weed and show up to a few classes, and you'd get a degree. But most people did so much more. Independent projects, interdisciplinary performance art, all-night concerts, experimental genre-benders, metal bands, etc. Most of the students there didn't have a half hour free in their schedule all week. I racked up 100 performances in one form or another in the course of two years. Many of us came out changed people, primed for anything, with an incredible breadth of skills and the ability to put on a show at the drop of a hat.

                        That level of skill and immersion is available at a Feldenkrais training, if you treat it as such. If you come into the program, having practiced the method for a while, curious about it, reading up on it, and applying it to some other areas, going to workshops, interacting with other professionals... there's a lot THERE for you to soak up. And very much of the time, the things I learn are not what the lesson is about. If the trainer is elusive in language when a question is asked, that doesn't mean to me "wait and see", it means "why would he say it that way?"

                        But I think only a portion of the class has had that click. And it does feel like we spend a lot of time "getting up to speed," and some of the group discussions can be infuriating. It's almost like there are three different methods being learned in the class. A format I think could be really effective is to have some sort of basic-grasp prerequisite, and an intensive "bootcamp" to get the greener students up to speed before the actual training begins. But with such a comparatively small following, that would be a hard sell. This seems like a decent compromise. So I've been treating this year as a "getting-everyone-up-to-speed" period and using it to delve deeper into areas of interest and pay attention to the nuance of how things are taught.

                        The method is, in my current interpretation, very much structured around a particular tenet, which is "How do you get someone to do something without explicitly telling them to do that thing?" I think they could be a lot more explicit in nudging people to grasp THAT, because to me it seems absolutely core to grokking a lot of what goes on in the training. It's all about setting up the CONDITIONS for learning, then allowing the learning to take place. Much of the skill and the meat of Feldenkrais is becoming aware THAT there is something that can be learned.

                        I'm reminded of my tabla professor. He would have no time frame to teach you how to change the pitch on the bayan (the left hand drum). He would not bring it up. Pretend it didn't even exist as a skill. He would wait until one day the student did it naturally on his own, and THEN he'd show you how to refine it.

                        What I would like is a lot more rigor in understanding the underlying mechanisms of what's going on. Which suggests to me that it's time to do some of my own research into the matter.


                        • ..... been off exploring and now back to science..

                          I've not read all the thread completely, but to comment.

                          Feldenkrais first popped onto my radar in 1990, through a client. Then through Horses (T Touch, then voice work, performance, movement classes.
                          1993 I did the 4 day intro & 1994 to 1999 the full FM course.

                          2000 I finished my Masters in Public Health & walked away from science. I went off 'playing' with all manner of creative, arts & experiential psychological training.

                          So what do I think of the 4 year course & the whole Feld community ?

                          The 4 year course (My Apprenticeship in Self) was great, for self development.
                          The first 5 days I was upset confused, angry disgruntled asking "when does 'training start?"
                          Then the penny dropped.
                          That I was required to be a student, to commit & learn & practice, not expect to be taught.

                          So I put all my years of being 'taught' to one side and immersed.

                          I rolled around, watched, wondered to myself.
                          "how is this all affecting my mind/system/body ?" " What's the true science behind this?"

                          I experienced change that conflicted with beliefs.
                          My persistent pain went, areas of 'lack of sensation' in my body became 'normal' I experienced a massive emotional shift & moved differently.

                          My Physio thoughts always ticked, principles started to emerge, challenge my views.
                          At the end of the 4 years.... I went off exploring ... again....

                          For me, I got what I wanted. It wasn't a training to be a finished qualified practitioner.
                          It was more akin to martial arts training.
                          Well, maybe there is a clue. Moshe was a Judoki, a Sensei.
                          I came off the course with a belt.

                          Now I'm back, in the science community.
                          As for the entire FM community, who knows where they are all going. I'm not in a guild.
                          In terms of most of what current practs are presenting on youtube, it's not true to the original and they just say it includes some Feldenkrais principles

                          Larry Goldfarb has set up a 4 year IFF course grads can join an international somatic educators/therapists society.

                          IMO we are at an interesting phase in regard science and 'named techniques'.
                          Moshe never wanted his work to be therapy and he seems to have been a wise canny bod


                          • Originally posted by Dan84 View Post
                            I've invited a few Feldy's here. Maybe some will show up. I don't want this to be a one man show.

                            IMHO Feldenkrais is the Sumatran orangutan of HPSG: wonderful but critically endangered. I'm proposing SS as a kind of wild life preserve.
                            What is HPSG?


                            • I completed Larrys Trilogy back in 2000 and found it a very useful integration with the training I completed in 1999.