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  • Originally posted by Dan84 View Post
    This was recently posted on Feldenkrais Facebook page as good example of how FI might (should?) be taught /done/ thought about. By combining seemingly simple principles (I posted a few on page 1 or 2; see Rywerant's Acquiring the Feldenkrais Profession for a good list), truly complex changes can emerge from simple principles (or constraints, in Feldy language)

    Ted Talk: Complexity Theory & Puppies (Nicholas Perony)

    I thought both of these links were somewhere in this thread. But, since I am having a little difficulty finding them, I am adding them to it via this above quote. Hope they are helpful to someone:
    C.O. ( gender: ) - LMT, BS(Anatomy), DC
    Music Fog... pick a song to listen to... you can't go wrong.
    Need relaxation samples for your office? I have made a Deep Relaxation Massage Music Pandora Station and have others that may also be useful - about 8 massage music stations and about 49 other nifty options.

    Comment


    • Sometimes I run across things and can't figure out how I got there (other than I was looking for the Judith Stransky Notes). Since this was quite random, I figured I'd add it here, even though it is just a Feldenkrais Library link.

      Those in Australia may benefit from it.

      https://afgnswlibrary.wordpress.com/lending/

      https://afgnswlibrary.wordpress.com/...e-feldenkrais/
      C.O. ( gender: ) - LMT, BS(Anatomy), DC
      Music Fog... pick a song to listen to... you can't go wrong.
      Need relaxation samples for your office? I have made a Deep Relaxation Massage Music Pandora Station and have others that may also be useful - about 8 massage music stations and about 49 other nifty options.

      Comment


      • Thanks for the read. It was cathartic.

        This will be my first substantial post to this site. I originally signed up to get more information about DNM. Reading this thread, I'm inspired by some of my classmates' bravely candid opinions regarding our training. So I'll spill some beans. Let's make something tasty!

        I'm 1.25 years from completing my Feldenkrais Method Practitioner program. I'm a vocational research scientist, and I took up FM to manage my long-standing chronic pain issues. The training was offered in town, and I was going to be here for at least two years when I started the program, and tuition wasn't that much more expensive than the ongoing private lessons (functional integration, FI) I was addicted to. So I figured I should take advantage of the resource and get more independent.

        I was a very poor student of the self-directed FM modality (awareness through movement, ATM) and the program definitely set me up to manage my own health. Although from day one I found many aspects of the curriculum wanting, and many of my classmates disinclined to critical thinking, recently this has become more of a mental impediment for me because I'm now interested in taking up the practice vocationally.

        As a student of the natural sciences the profession is in a somewhat embarrassing state. People like Norman Doidge cast Feldenkrais as a "healer" and get showered with praise from the very establishment that should be amending that to "educator." (Yes, Feldenkrais routinely denied healing anyone, and yes, the distinction matters.) I had a member of the profession's leadership tell me, unflinchingly, that FM was scientifically supported by "quantum physics." The mixing of modalities, even contradictory ones (any energy healing modality is diametrically opposed to Feldenkrais theory), is uniformly tolerated. You don't know how many people argue for a nice harmony between FM and fitness-yoga. It's quite rare, in my experience, to find a Feldenkrais practitioner that is only hawking Feldenkrais.

        I can barely consider it a profession (on the yardstick of PM, for example) because the standards of competent practice don't seem to have any objective qualities besides counting hours of education or practice. If you can run a financially sustainable practice, you can probably hold onto your Guild Certificatfion. Because FI practice is deeply intersubjective, it seems the profession has given up on objective measures of performance. It's a really frustrating state of affairs for an educational school in the lineage of a humanist and a materialist. The flakes are winning.
        Last edited by rydog; 17-10-2015, 01:23 AM. Reason: fixed some abbreviations (it's a METHOD not a TECHNIQUE!)
        Ryan MB Hoffman, PhD
        Guild Certified Feldenkrais Practitioner

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        • Agreed, Doidge's book was awful!

          Even worse, I learned more about Moshe Feldenkrais in his book than I learned in the 2 years I was in training. So that was really disappointing.

          But Doidge's 2nd book was really awful. I mean Dr. Oz squared, if you will.
          "The danger is not that the soul should doubt whether there is any bread, but that, by a lie, it should persuade itself that it is not hungry" (Simone Weil)

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          • The Feldenkrais Method is a wonderful way to work with people. Some of the people and culture associated with the Method are not so wonderful.

            I hope this thread - in some small part - has helped signpost some of the lowlights and highlights.

            Please know that there are people within FM who are (in whatever way) fighting against the present situation and culture. I've tried to identify some of them during the course of this thread.

            I've divorced myself from much of the mainstream FM culture, to the point of silently (and occasionally, out loud) humming this little ditty. Sometimes, the only way to build something better is to start over.

            PS: The other week, someone forwarded me the current cost of a local FPTP, per segment. I was...amused?...to see that each segment cost around $8000. There are 8 segments...making the training more costly than a university degree.

            Despite declining numbers and dissatisfaction, someone, somewhere, is still making money - and when profit is involved, things don't change rapidly.

            What a mess - and what a terrible, damn shame.
            Last edited by Dan84; 25-04-2015, 06:39 PM.
            Dan
            Tactile Raconteur

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            • I agree Dan84, I think Feldenkrais is awesome. I was disappointed in having to drop that program, but there was just too much woo and not enough substance for me to justify the cost, not only the program itself, but the money I was losing from not being able to work during the segments.
              "The danger is not that the soul should doubt whether there is any bread, but that, by a lie, it should persuade itself that it is not hungry" (Simone Weil)

              Comment


              • I sometimes wish that FPAW (a popular Feldenkrais facebook discussion page) was publicly visible. There are many interesting and sometimes concerning discussions that give glimpse behind the curtain. There is one current thread seriously considering the plausibility of craniosacral work for tinnitus, other threads on the use of manual therapy to treat GERD and many things inbetween.

                The roof, the roof, the roof is on fire...
                Last edited by Dan84; 25-04-2015, 07:27 PM.
                Dan
                Tactile Raconteur

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                • On the premise that "it's restful, it worked for me, so it must be ok", I'm making the case for a fifth of bourbon, a nice fat stogie and falling asleep in the sun under a shady tree as equivalently plausible treatment
                  Dan
                  Tactile Raconteur

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                  • Hard to believe that it's been nearly two years since I first posted on this thread. At that point, I was about to begin my PT program. Now I'm about to wrap up the academics and head into a year of clinicals. It hasn't been an easy path, but I'm glad to be on it. If you are a critically thinking person in the Feldenkrais world, you will often feel very alone. It's a culture with a guru-fixation and its own weird traditions. These are layered on top of some brilliant insights into the human condition, but it's a process to try to separate the wheat from the chaff.

                    A handful of people are fighting to make the guild and its community into something better, but that's a battle that I don't have the heart to wage myself. Easier to wear slippers than to carpet the world.

                    Regarding FPAW: it's no surprise to me that Feldies don't communicate in an open forum. If people interested in the Feldenkrais Method could see the ignorance on display by many members of the "profession", they'd go running for the hills.

                    Comment


                    • laying carpet

                      Originally posted by mpnyo View Post
                      A handful of people are fighting to make the guild and its community into something better, but that's a battle that I don't have the heart to wage myself. Easier to wear slippers than to carpet the world... If people interested in the Feldenkrais Method could see the ignorance on display by many members of the "profession", they'd go running for the hills.
                      Yup that's where I'm at with it, although I might say that I do have the heart to try to do it, and I lack the brains to learn from your slippers metaphor. Here's an accurate cartoon of a recent exchange I had with a trainer:
                      ME: How come there's no critical thinking component to the Practitioner curriculum? How can Feldenkrais be a softer science than many of the liberal arts? Is Feldenkrais a fine art?

                      TRAINER: Well I simply disagree that there is no critical thinking component. Studying a person's self-use1 and hypothesizing2 about what type of lesson will improve their self-use, then evaluating that hypothesis with ATM or FI, definitely builds critical thinking.

                      1 The Feldenkrais-contextualized meaning of self-usage is larger than neuromuscular functioning, but overlaps heavily with it. The other connotations bleed into sociobiology (although many sociobiological ideas are appropriated by psychologists.)

                      2 There is substantial consensus (for example, reflected in the International Feldenkrais Federation's guidelines for competent practice) that the Method is not deductive but rather hypothesis driven.
                      So the trainer thinks that we're supposed to be developing critical reasoning skills. But let's just say that all kinds of fallacious reasoning are demonstrated in class -- appeals to ignorance, most strikingly. And ultimately, any Feldenkrais Practitioner is walking a fine line any time they cite or contradict Feldenkrais as an authority in Feldenkrais Method. After all, "Feldenkrais evolved his Method over time."

                      The thing is, it bothers me to see the work of Feldenkrais so thoroughly mishandled. Just because he was postmodern before it was cool doesn't mean he actually meant that (for example) there is no objective reality. But there are plenty of ways to quote Feldenkrais out of context to support the notion that material reality is only a socio-psychological construct, and sometimes I'm in the same room when it happens.

                      The other thing that bothers me is, I (think I) know how to 'fix it' -- for starts, you define some consequences of malpractice, and then you apply professional standards that would be appropriate in other areas.

                      For example, take chiropractic, a body of practices that are, on the whole, contradicted by the methods of natural science. Even within that pesudoscientific profession, there's greatly differing standards of competence depending on the geographic region. The Danish organization absolutely forbid muscle testing and homeopathy from their practitioners. More specifically, a Dutch chiropractor can practice muscle testing, but it has to be in a different practice space than their chiropractic office, and they cannot bill their work as chiropractic if it includes muscle testing. In contrast, the US chiropractors seem to be allowed to do anything that doesn't involve genitals! The typical chiropractic treatment includes at least one example of muscle testing in the US. (That's all from Wikipedia except the genitals part which is probably true but I made it up.)

                      Why are there homeopaths in my training program!? Shouldn't they be obligated to completely isolate their quackery from FM? How about the energy healers? If they never renounce their previous belief in magic healing, how can they plausibly assimilate FI in other terms than a 'laying of hands'? (This is also relevant to PT and Medicine... I like to remind people that Evidence Based Medicine is an area of Medicine, not the whole thing. Insert Dr. Oz reference.)

                      Who thinks I'm just being a cantankerous bastard? I want to know why a body of knowledge as brilliant as Feldenkrais should turn into a drab puddle of postmodern claptrap. I think that's one reason why Anat Baniel is doing so well -- she knows how to explain what she thinks she's doing in terms that sound objectively reasonable and are consistent with Feldenkrais (even if the marketing seems slimy.)

                      So I guess I like Feldenkrais enough to lay a lot of carpet. It might seem futile but it's the only way I can practice and also sleep at night.
                      Last edited by rydog; 12-11-2015, 04:07 PM. Reason: IT'S A METHOD!
                      Ryan MB Hoffman, PhD
                      Guild Certified Feldenkrais Practitioner

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by rydog View Post
                        [INDENT]ME: How come there's no critical thinking component to the Practitioner curriculum? How can Feldenkrais be a softer science than many of the liberal arts? Is Feldenkrais Technique a fine art?

                        TRAINER: Well I simply disagree that there is no critical thinking component. Studying a person's self-use1 and hypothesizing2 about what type of lesson will improve their self-use, then evaluating that hypothesis with ATM or FI, definitely builds critical thinking.[INDENT]
                        Yeah...I'm a pretty strong cynic in this whole domain. I'll just say that trying to talk with most trainers is probably a bit of a waste of time. It's an easy way to get a great deal of obfuscation.

                        The most clear answers I've ever gotten from a trainer have come from Jeff Haller. If you're serious about teaching this stuff some day (or reaping the most benefit from it), then he's the guy to go to:

                        http://www.iopsacademy.com/

                        Though here's a caution since you've mentioned considering practicing one day: making a living armed only with a GCFP is damn near impossible. Beware the feeling that the flakiness of many Feldies explains the dearth of successful, independent practitioners. It's so much worse than that...

                        I remember having this hope that I could somehow help the community of practitioners, the guild, the method. But it's like diving in to save a drowning man. He'll pull you down with him. So I'll just toss out a life vest and get on my slippered way...

                        my two cents.

                        Comment


                        • Critical thinking is not taught because it's not (usually) an area of expertise for most trainers nor an interest of most trainees. Make of that what you will

                          A lot of this can be resolved by realising that Feldenkrais intended his professional trainings to be undertaken *by* professionals (with the requisite background), not absolute laymen. I think that got waived somewhere along the way...which might explain certain frustrations.
                          Last edited by Dan84; 27-04-2015, 10:26 AM.
                          Dan
                          Tactile Raconteur

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                          • It got waved Dan when they started to need to fund "Institutes".

                            13 days away from completing my training. I have continued to struggle with the irony of the program, but it has captivated me in my personal practice and movement playfulness outside the ATM structure. It certainly stimulated a lot of thought and self research which I will take with me now as I get out of the theater production the program has become.

                            It is clearly not a profession to me though at this point. Kudos to the folks who are making it work for them and maybe as time goes on it becomes more of what I do. It has influenced me greatly but in my neck of the woods it isn't even worth marketing the name.

                            They would do well to shorten the program, 4 years, 800+ hours and when I asked what the plan was for the final 2 segments to be told by the trainer, " Do I look like I have a plan!" , really said it all to me.

                            Thankful I did it, but really thankful to not be doing anymore after 13 more days.

                            Regards,

                            Chad
                            Chad Hardin PT, GCFP

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                            • "Do I look like I have a plan!"
                              :angry:
                              Ryan MB Hoffman, PhD
                              Guild Certified Feldenkrais Practitioner

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Dan84 View Post
                                A lot of this can be resolved by realising that Feldenkrais intended his professional trainings to be undertaken *by* professionals (with the requisite background), not absolute laymen. I think that got waived somewhere along the way...which might explain certain frustrations.
                                I thought it got waived at Amherst by Moshe Feldenkrais himself. He may have had some vision of what could happen and how a 4 year training might unfold, but never got to complete it. As much as I like to blame the crowd of early American students who ran off with the service marks and became hyper-proprietary about everything, some of the responsibility for the mixed legacy rests with the man himself.

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