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  • Hi Wicked slow

    Originally posted by wicked slow View Post
    I like the shift of perspective ATM and FI provide. It is movement at one place on a spectrum, it is purposeful and dynamic and informative. It doesn't replace movement at the other various places on the spectrum though, which are also purposeful, dynamic and informative. I still have some fundamental issues with the distaste many seem to have with effortful experiences.
    I think we discussed some of this on the first few pages. I tend to agree with you and Mac regarding local maxima. AFAIK, the 'always slow' presentation used by many in teaching FM was the major (only?) complaint of the late Mel Siff. It's a good point - one echoed at (tangentially) in this latest blogpost by John Tarr

    I have enjoyed the training but I have also spent three years fumbling through an enormous amount of reading , some of which landed me here on this site (and thanks everyone, now I have a whole new list to read) I am grateful for feeling my options, and I use options because for a long time it felt like frustration, I was close a number of times to bagging the whole thing, I won't get into the why's I stayed, but I am glad I did. It has made my work and time with other people and movement more fulfilling. The issues in FM training, guild, pedagogy, etc certainly may be barriers to many, but not to me, maybe I am just a selfish guy who lives in a small town and doesn't have to face many of these issues, I guess I am glad for that.
    IIRC, part of the reason for starting this thread is to better illuminate some of the shortcomings in the traditional presentation / training format. There have been calls for separate "intensive" vs "professional" pathways through the training (with some kind of bridge between the two).

    One of the issues (as identified by Mac and myself) is the low barrier to entry. All well and good...but the outcome can sometimes be a graduating class who has little in the way of 'movement experience' beyond FM.

    It's a little like the old notion that the best Aikido practitioners are judo blackbelts, boxers, kendoka etc: there's something to be said about direct experience of hard work.
    Tactile Raconteur


    • hey Dan,

      I guess I just don't see the same issues as you folks. There is a large diversity of people in the training, not everyone is trying to enter the world post training in the same fashion. I think it actually speaks highly of Moshe's process. I came to the conclusion that my frustrations were associated with what I though was some of the same hypocrisy I was discovering in all the other "Method" training over the years in body work and rehab. The lack of consilience was more a marketing ploy than reality. It was then I realized not everyone needs to know the things I was interested in to make a successful practitioner. I am glad I scuffled my thoughts, although my ideomotion probably took a beating .

      There is a funny paradox in the training. There is no objective, measurable syllabus, nothing that states you will know this at this time, nothing that counts as board approved CEU material; the empirical practice of it is highly diverse and has no place for such barriers. While I struggled with what seemed like gross inattention or even worse simple ignorance of things I thought important, I have realized are no different than my experiences in ATM or FI, for what I find interesting and enlightening is my own. I was content with lack of spoon feeding in the ATM yet expecting it in discussion, I can spoon feed myself, and have embraced it. Oddly enough,maybe it was just timing, but the framework of the training shifted for me at the same time, and the same issues I believed were being ignored are now aspects of the discussion, I have to wonder if they have always been and I was in my own blind spot.

      I see no issues with a spectrum of graduates. Just like there are a spectrum of PT's. Applying the FM is a personal journey that you share with other people. I expect that journey to change for myself and in conjunction with the people I work with. I can't see how it would be so different for the person next to me in the training who is " low barrier" (p.s- what is "low barrier" anyway). But, I also don't expect being a FM practitioner to make me material wealthy, to be the second coming, or a magic trick so I have no attachment to how it is marketed.

      I do think it would be interesting if the training would require a year away in another training, the changes in perspective would be helpful, I think the training falls victim to similar complacency we have in our movement, it takes a shape and can suffocate it a bit. Getting the students out into different settings would be a good thing IMO.
      Last edited by wicked slow; 13-05-2014, 01:47 PM.
      Chad Hardin PT, GCFP


      • Wicked slow

        I think we agree on a lot of things. At the same time, it's fair to point out three things.

        1) You were a PT when you started your FPTP. That means you were way ahead of a lot of people in terms of mental concepts, background knowledge and industry connections.

        Similarly, your capacity to fold the work back into what you were doing (and your capacity to earn a buck with it, should you choose) would have been much higher than that of a 40yr old house-wife, without any kind of prior scientific knowledge, career or experience outside of FM. Or a 19 year old art student. Or the 30 yr old truck driver with chronic back pain.

        Yet, the latter stereotypes make a *significant* proportion of trainees. No wonder then that not many can generate a successful practice nor discuss the method in any kind of rigorous manner. Nor - for that matter - spread the FM meme.

        Please note that I'm not saying "let's get rid of them". What I am saying is "why put people who are there for self development and immersion through what purports to be a vocational training program...but isn't really?"

        2) You write -

        But, I also don't expect being a FM practitioner to make me material wealthy, to be the second coming, or a magic trick so I have no attachment to how it is marketed
        Fair enough, perfectly valid. OTOH...that's a lot of time and money to spend rolling around on the floor, isn't it? Don't get me wrong - I think it's a fantastic, valuable, life changing experience. OTOH wouldn't a more affordable, equally rich experience allow for an even *greater* number of folks to immerse themselves into the Method...whilst providing a separate, more demanding (but related) track for those wanting to become practitioners?

        3) I'm not particularly phased with "marketing the method" either. Frankly, I don't think people give a crap about "the method". What I do think people care about is finding someone competent who can help them with whatever problems they're having (and not just MSK pain; there are a lot of applications of FM outside of the therapy space as you know).

        Anyway, think less Che Guevara and more Julius Sumner Miller I'm more interested in discussing "why" and "how" of FM rather than trying to lead a revolution.
        Last edited by Dan84; 13-05-2014, 07:17 PM.
        Tactile Raconteur


        • 1. Being a PT is but a reference point. It generated as much conflict as clarity. So while a mom, a truck driver, and the house wife may know very different aspects of the body compared to me I am not so sure there is that much difference while learning something new to all of us. I have learned from the martial artists, the dance choreographer, and the mom in our training. I hope I have offered something to.

          It was the same issue when I went to prosthetic grad school where there were bio majors, a PT, a sculptor, etc. It did little to determine who was actually making good sockets and fitting prosthetics.

          I don't see the language difficulty as an issue, it evolves for all of us, I have had to work to convert the words and feelings from my language background as a PT to the general public for years. It changes depending on who I am talking to and how deeply I connect to the material. So a mom who has integrated a concept may use different words but they will have power with the people she speaks to I imagine.

          The bigger issue is having the self confidence to put it out there. Having a background working with people may be easier for me, but it is sometimes more about being OK with not knowing shit and still working through it. A FPTP strong point

          2. I think they call that ATM class Dan Mine is $8.

          There is more to the training than going to an ATM class. I was also shocked by the price a bit. But, the diversity of the material, the concept, its application across a broad spectrum, it is far better than other avenues I have payed to travel along.

          3. The perception of competency is just that.

          all the best,

          Chad Hardin PT, GCFP


          • The FGNA is having its conference Washington, Aug 27- Sept 1.

            A few of the sessions tickle my curiosity, might interest others too.





            FM conferences are usually 'by invitation only'. However, I note that the conference sign up sheet states "Trainees are welcome in all of the conference offerings (there are no workshops restricted to "practitioners only"), so I'd simply tick that box if you're interested.

            BTW, previous conference recordings are available here
            Last edited by Dan84; 20-05-2014, 09:32 AM.
            Tactile Raconteur


            • BTW, I asked them to open this one up to everyone (not that I have any particular sway as to what the Guild in another country does). I hope it works out one way or another for those interested.

              Cross-pollination with other like minded people would seem like a good idea. Therapists, dancers, artists, scientists...the more the merrier I say.

              As it stands, there's a pretty lively (and generally "pro") thread over on. FPAW Facebook page.

              Now we just need a Feldy prax. to attend something like the Pain Summit to really get the exchange of ideas flowing.
              Last edited by Dan84; 20-05-2014, 06:55 PM.
              Tactile Raconteur


              • I nominate Todd Hargrove.
                HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                SomaSimple on Facebook

                "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire


                • Never met Todd, but apart from me, he seems to be the only other FP that's interacted much here. He's got a great blog and is a sharp guy, so that could be awesome.

                  I'd love to get Goldfarb or Haller on board. Let me see what I can do
                  Tactile Raconteur


                  • FWIW I had a great conversation with Jeff a few weeks ago. Very pleasant and enthusiastic. It would be fun to put him in a room with guys like Todd and Barrett to see what happens.
                    Rod Henderson, PT, ScD, OCS
                    It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into. — Jonathan Swift


                    • I pinged both Rajam and Jeff to see if there's mutual interest. I'm also talking to the conveyors of the Feldy conference to see if they can open the doors a little. Don't say I did nothin' for no-one
                      Tactile Raconteur


                      • Originally posted by Dan84 View Post
                        We're not where we could be and it's our own damn fault.

                        If you don't share your toys, eventually the other kids won't want to play with you. Which is dumb, because we have some dandy ones to share.

                        I've been re-reading this thread, and just ran across this quote. I wanted to say "Thank you".
                        C.O. ( gender: ) - LMT, BS(Anatomy), DC
                        Music Fog... pick a song to listen to... you can't go wrong.
                        Need relaxation samples for your office? I have made a Deep Relaxation Massage Music Pandora Station and have others that may also be useful - about 8 massage music stations and about 49 other nifty options.


                        • Yerkes-Dobson law

                          Read an interesting piece from John Tarr called Healthy Challenge vs. Strain which mentions Yerkes-Dobson law (plots the relationship between arousal and performance). You can imagine why something like that has relevance

                          It's a good read, I think, that starts to get into Taub's Anti-fragile territory.

                          Originally posted by Curious One View Post
                          I've been re-reading this thread, and just ran across this quote. I wanted to say "Thank you".
                          You're welcome. Some of us are trying to play catch up vis-a-vis open-sourcing, research etc out-side of the usual channels - something I'm hopefully contributing to in some small way
                          Last edited by Dan84; 03-06-2014, 06:20 PM.
                          Tactile Raconteur


                          • This popped up on FPAW. It's being held in NY; don't know much more beyond that and what's in the blurb. If anyone from here goes, I'd love to read a write-up!

                            Bridging the Feldenkrais method and Physical therapy workshop by Marek Wyszynski
                            Tactile Raconteur


                            • Does this work for you?

                              Feldenkais: the use of touch and words to change movement behaviour
                              Tactile Raconteur


                              • I thought I'd add a short note here, which I hope doesn't come off as too self congratulatory. I was recently hired by a local private college as senior lecturer in biological sciences. As part of my agreement, they've asked me to consider (or reconsider, I guess) taking on a PhD.

                                If I do, I will likely do one by publication, as that would allow time to work and build up a publishing history. I've asked a few colleagues from the Feldy world what they would like to see in terms of evidence: some of the replies I've seen have been along the lines of outcome measures (using QoL scales), 'mindfulness research, pain modulation etc.

                                In any case, if I do decide to proceed, it'd be with the notion of producing good, quality work examining the effects of FM.

                                In other news: I'm looking at working with a few prax. to create some kind of online or distance learning for health professionals on FM. Very early days on that yet but once I settle into my new position, it'll be something I'll hopefully have more time to look at.

                                EDIT: If you're interested in ^, please give this post a thumbs-up so I have some idea if the fish are biting
                                Last edited by Dan84; 21-06-2014, 09:15 PM.
                                Tactile Raconteur