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  • Hi Andrew

    Originally posted by AG_NYC View Post
    Hi Dan,

    It sounds like what you're saying in your email (and let me know if I've mis-read/heard, etc) is that frequently Feldenkrais teachers tend to approach improving the client's function indirectly. In other words, if their backhand gives them problems, don't work directly on the tennis stroke; work on the spine, the pelvis and connect those elements to the pattern; or work towards it from another functional perspective/orientation, etc. I think your comments are generally valid as far as how most Feldenkrais practitioners are trained.
    No, that's not quite right (although that's true, as well). What I said was that FM focuses on enhancing self-regulatory behavior, rather than necessarily teaching discrete motor skills.

    Take for example the "Judo Roll" series of ATMs. Are they about teaching students how to do judo rolls...or are they about something else? If the former, they're an absolute dismal failure as I've never met anyone who claimed they'd learned ready to use ukemi from the exericse.

    The video you mention is a case in point. Jeff didn't really "teach" Dorothy how to do ballet, he taught her his favorite lesson (support from the ground) thru the container of ballet. Do you acknowledge the difference based on Ives comments above?

    Give a watch and let me know what you think. I'd love to continue the discussion
    I think perhaps you failed to read the first two pages of this thread, else you might have noticed I invite Jeff here myself - and that he kindly stopped by to comment

    BTW, I watched that FI (and sent Jeff a note) when uploaded to YT. It's a good FI.

    [YT]OiukopzvzKQ[/YT]
    Last edited by Dan84; 28-04-2014, 01:14 PM.
    Dan
    Tactile Raconteur

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Dan84 View Post
      Hi Andrew



      No, that's not quite right (although that's true, as well). What I said was that FM focuses on enhancing self-regulatory behavior, rather than necessarily teaching discrete motor skills.

      Take for example the "Judo Roll" series of ATMs. Are they about teaching students how to do judo rolls...or are they about something else? If the former, they're an absolute dismal failure as I've never met anyone who claimed they'd learned ready to use ukemi from the exericse.

      The video you mention is a case in point. Jeff didn't really "teach" Dorothy how to do ballet, he taught her his favorite lesson (support from the ground) thru the container of ballet. Do you acknowledge the difference based on Ives comments above?



      I think perhaps you failed to read the first two pages of this thread, else you might have noticed I invite Jeff here myself - and that he kindly stopped by to comment

      BTW, I watched that FI (and sent Jeff a note) when uploaded to YT. It's a good FI.

      [YT]OiukopzvzKQ[/YT]

      FWIW- that has not been my experience, the training has been more broad than just attention to pelvis, spine, and its relationship to extremity use

      what is the difference in self regulatory behavior and motor skill, just curious
      Chad Hardin PT, GCFP

      Comment


      • To my mind, one teaches meta-skills ; the other is a direct passing on of a particular skill.

        Again, case in point; judo rolls ATM leading to headstands which teaches (in part) about reversibility and control, learning how to "struggle well", when to bail out and stop being so stubborn etc. Compare this to teaching someone how to do a judo roll for the purpose safely landing from a throw.

        Remember that the dynamic is thinking<->feeling<->sensing<->moving, with the purpose of influencing "action". Moshe is quoted as saying that he could bring about the same changes that ATM does using mathematics but seeing that most people lack the background - and that movement was more concrete - movement was his primary "in" towards changing behaviour.

        "The movements are idiotic; what I'm after is flexible brains"

        PS: note btw that the hands in component is called Functional integration. I don't think this is coincidental in the slightest, if you consider the above feedback loops.
        Last edited by Dan84; 28-04-2014, 06:35 PM.
        Dan
        Tactile Raconteur

        Comment


        • passing of meta skills. sounds like everything else. spent 10,000 hours on an erg in college training, that was also a meta skill for rowing a boat. Isn't it more about gaining information in general? I am just thinking that learning anything is learning the meta skills, so where does the line get drawn?

          I have always enjoyed the stories about the pressure put on Moshe to come up with names, I think the names are just that, could easily be called use of ears and here feel this
          Chad Hardin PT, GCFP

          Comment


          • Wicked slow

            Originally posted by wicked slow View Post
            passing of meta skills. sounds like everything else. spent 10,000 hours on an erg in college training, that was also a meta skill for rowing a boat.
            I couldn't disagree with you more. If you think 10,000 hours of learning to row is anything like the learning that ATM is supposed to generate, I'm not sure what anyone could say to convince you otherwise.

            The difference between the two is the *crux* of how the method is different and the crux of the difference between the Judo Roll ATM series and learning judo rolls.

            Isn't it more about gaining information in general? I am just thinking that learning anything is learning the meta skills, so where does the line get drawn?
            IMHO no, at least not in the way the word 'information' is generally used. Again, the intention is different. Ask yourself what meta-skills (as in improving overall human action in everyday life) learning to do (say) a two handed tennis backhand is designed to impart? Yet, a two-handed backhand is a definite motor skill.

            BTW, this not to say it *can't* be done but that it generally *isn't*. For example, I once had an EP colleague forgo the usual shoulder rehab protocols in favour of taking the chap outside of the clinic, handing him a fishing rod and reel and getting him to do line casting, as tolerated, over and over and over. Success was measured in fish caught per day.

            You see...the patient liked to fish but hated his job. Therefore, anything that (in his mind) was work related tended to have poor outcomes. But fishing....that had real meaning to him.

            Patient improve ROM pretty quickly and was able to find other work!

            (I tell you one thing - I am in awe that my colleague could write something like that up as "Range of motion exercises" - and get Workers Comp to pay for it.).

            I have always enjoyed the stories about the pressure put on Moshe to come up with names, I think the names are just that, could easily be called use of ears and here feel this
            Literary allusion to the power of naming aside (or maybe not: MF was of Hasidic Jewish background), words have defined meanings for a reasons, that being to convey specific ideas.

            I doubt "use the ears and feel this" evokes quite the same thing as Functional Integration or Awareness Through Movement Similarly, there's a reason why it's called a sella turcica and not a "funny skull depression #003"

            Words have meanings for a reason; they evoke a certain visual or sensory mnemonic.

            Anyway, that's my theory.
            Dan
            Tactile Raconteur

            Comment


            • missed my point, but I am wicked slow, so I am used to it.

              spending 10,000 hours on an erg is not rowing a boat, it is a meta skill, as well as a torture device , it doesn't develop hand callouses in the right places, it does little to teach you how to be a part of a crew, to balance a boat, the thousand other subtle feelings along the way in a 90 minute steady state row or a 6 min hammerfest. that was my point.

              I could do a skeleton arms ATM and say it does nothing to teach me how to row, but I could also say that it increases my sensory awareness and control options through my scap, ribs,, spine, etc and take that new skill into the boat and apply it to getting the stick in the water and hanging on the oar handle.

              I have no idea what words will evoke for someone, I have had guys drop their gloves for saying nice things and not nice things, so why get hung up on them, I readily admit though, it is still a developing theory
              Last edited by wicked slow; 29-04-2014, 02:37 PM.
              Chad Hardin PT, GCFP

              Comment


              • Seeing this thread has kicked up again, here's something interesting I stumbled across the other day on ideopathic scoliosis

                ... "The clinical manifestations of idiopathic scoliosis are well known, yet its causes remain unclear. Several factors have been proposed, including abnormal structural elements of the spine, dysfunctional spinal musculature, genetic factors, alterations of collagen metabolism, and abnormalities of the central nervous system. The most promising investigations appear to implicate the central nervous system, especially those areas involved with postural equilibrium. Spinal cord reflexes play an integral role in the maintenance of posture. These complex polysynaptic segmental reflexes are regulated by a variety of descending suprasegmental systems, by peripheral afferent impulses and within the spinal cord by a network of interneurons and propriospinal neurons."

                So, in other words, there is a great deal of complex interaction between different parts of the spinal cord involved in maintaining posture, including information from the peripheral nerves, from the brain, and interactions within the spinal cord. Messages from the brain fine-tune the process of postural regulation that goes on within the spinal cord ("efferent control system"). If you've ever studied the anatomy of the spinal musculature, you know that there are several short muscles attached to each vertebra that can rotate it in different directions, which maintain the functional coupling of the vertebrae and determine how forces travel through the spine. Presumably this is how Feldenkrais and other bodymind modalities can have an effect on posture, walking, and spinal column function: through central mediation of the spinal reflexes, the central mediation being (somewhat at least) accessible to conscious control.
                Any thoughts on this line of argument? (full commentary in link above)
                Dan
                Tactile Raconteur

                Comment


                • I like mindbody instead bodymind
                  Chad Hardin PT, GCFP

                  Comment


                  • Much of a muchness for me. I guess I'm use to seeing bodymind because of the BIM blog. What do you feel is the difference?

                    BTW, it's never been my intention to use this thread as method to spam videos, products etc (and it never will be), but I wanted to share two videos that I think are pretty interesting. The first is from Emily Anderson, a NZ based OT/Feldie, who show-cases some of her work below.

                    AFO's and the like are somewhat outside of my remit but it might be an interesting discussion.

                    http://vimeo.com/59387389

                    The second is a rather cute "how can Feldenkrais help" video by Michael Cann

                    [YT]dO3E3XQeF0U[/YT]


                    Michael Cann also did an interview here. His background (from what I understand) is environmental science and sustainability, so he has an interesting take on things. IIRC, the action starts around the 5:00 mark

                    [YT]NH9SuyZUgl0[/YT]
                    Last edited by Dan84; 07-05-2014, 01:47 AM.
                    Dan
                    Tactile Raconteur

                    Comment


                    • hey Dan, no difference, I was making a joke in reference to the language issue in the previous posts, haha. in all seriousness, with regard to the scoliosis article, uh, yeah, within idiopathic scoliosis how does that not fit into the process of it, nothing overly eye opening IMO

                      the video was nice, a lot of his experience resonates in me, it was nice to hear it in another's perspective.

                      I am young at practicing the feldenkrais method and I am sure my perceptions and understanding will evolve, but to me its a spectrum thing. There are a number of metaphors to choose from, but lets use movement. There are all types of movements, options, intensities, contexts, etc. I like the shift of perspective ATM and FI provide. It is movement at one place on a spectrum, it is purposeful and dynamic and informative. It doesn't replace movement at the other various places on the spectrum though, which are also purposeful, dynamic and informative. I still have some fundamental issues with the distaste many seem to have with effortful experiences. Maybe its just because I have spent a life time enjoying those types of experiences, but there is a lot to learn from movement that redlines you, that challenges you, etc so when they start poo poo'ing those I still cringe a bit. I have found a lot of self enhancement though working in a new place on the spectrum though and identify with the change in body image that Mr Cann talked about. I have found whether it was bike hillclimbing, skiing up and down a mountain, trail runs, erg pieces, etc the work I did at the ATM level has influenced my movement and body use at the other end, I was getting even more out of those efforts and adjusting myself to protect myself with greater ease.

                      It is no different than the practice working with people, just as I was needing to move at a place on a spectrum of movement to gain self insight prior to my practice I was seemingly missing that ability in the other places on my spectrum. My clients are no different. I read some of the topics here and it seems the same, people caught in one spot on a spectrum of treatment options.

                      I have enjoyed the training but I have also spent three years fumbling through an enormous amount of reading , some of which landed me here on this site (and thanks everyone, now I have a whole new list to read) I am grateful for feeling my options, and I use options because for a long time it felt like frustration, I was close a number of times to bagging the whole thing, I won't get into the why's I stayed, but I am glad I did. It has made my work and time with other people and movement more fulfilling. The issues in FM training, guild, pedagogy, etc certainly may be barriers to many, but not to me, maybe I am just a selfish guy who lives in a small town and doesn't have to face many of these issues, I guess I am glad for that.

                      2 cents worth
                      Last edited by wicked slow; 10-05-2014, 01:13 AM.
                      Chad Hardin PT, GCFP

                      Comment


                      • Quick shout-out. I had a great conversation with Mac this afternoon. Although he's in his first year of PT school, our brief interaction made me think he's going to do our profession a lot of good.

                        I'm looking forward to more talks down the road Mac. Thank you.
                        Rod Henderson, PT, ScD, OCS
                        It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into. — Jonathan Swift

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by TexasOrtho View Post
                          Quick shout-out. I had a great conversation with Mac this afternoon. Although he's in his first year of PT school, our brief interaction made me think he's going to do our profession a lot of good.

                          I'm looking forward to more talks down the road Mac. Thank you.
                          Rod,

                          Thank you for the kind words. It was a valuable conversation for me, and I hope that we can pick it up again at some point in the future.

                          Mac

                          Comment


                          • Smooth moves

                            Originally posted by Simon Thakur View Post
                            Glad to see some discussion on Feldenkrais work, I've been doing a lot of practice on and off over the past few years, with some friends who are practitioners but also a lot of sessions from www.openatm.org, after doing a lesson or two a day for a couple of weeks, you start to get a pretty good idea of how it works, and infinite possibilities begin to spontaneously present themselves. It's all very pleasant.
                            This is one of the s ites with the free exercise tapes I mentioned in class today.
                            Guess learning is a lifestyle, not a passtime.
                            Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. ~ Isaac Asimov

                            Comment


                            • Thanks for that Mary! Great to have finally met you. (And thanks for the reminder of that site goes to Thomas!)
                              We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin

                              I suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
                              Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

                              Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

                              We don't need a body to feel a body. Ronald Melzack

                              Comment


                              • http://www.uncommonsensing.com/

                                this is the guy whose free monthly atm i enjoy. i like the simplicity of his direction.

                                he has funny cds with titles like "getting hip"

                                great to meet you too Mary!
                                Thomas Klie-Cribb, RMT

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