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  • Originally posted by Ozis View Post
    In 2002.
    Ozis,

    Sine you brought this letter to the forefront, maybe you would like to mention what transpired in the Feldenkrais Guild after the letter was sent (since it's been over ten years now), if you are privvy to that information.
    C.O. ( gender: ) - LMT, BS(Anatomy), DC
    Music Fog... pick a song to listen to... you can't go wrong.
    Need relaxation samples for your office? I have made a Deep Relaxation Massage Music Pandora Station and have others that may also be useful - about 8 massage music stations and about 49 other nifty options.

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    • Originally posted by Curious One View Post
      Ozis,

      Sine you brought this letter to the forefront, maybe you would like to mention what transpired in the Feldenkrais Guild after the letter was sent (since it's been over ten years now), if you are privvy to that information.
      People have been making the same complaints for probably 25 years now and nothing really changes. I'm skeptical of the idea that this letter made any difference. The structure of the various guilds and accreditation boards throughout the world is a masterpiece of bureaucratic gridlock.

      For any GCFPs who may be reading this, you can take a look at the protocol for changing policy and ask yourself if any substantive change could ever make it through this gauntlet:

      http://www.feldenkrais.com/professio...accreditation/

      The Feldenkrais organizations are deeply messed up, and they have policies in place that make change all but impossible.

      Comment


      • When I signed up for Feldenkrais, my intent was to use it to help me learn how to help clients move better.

        I'm hosting Barrett's class here in San Diego and today was the first of his two day course. Earlier this evening, I sent an email to drop the Feldenkrais training. Not only did I learn more on this day from listening to Barrett speaking about Feldenkrais than I did in the first year of training, but I also realized that I don't need to pay over $20K to learn how to do this.

        In the first segment of Feldenkrais we went around our little group circles to discuss why we were there. I mentioned that my goal was to combine the teaching of helping people learn how to move with other things I'm learning about neuroscience and pain management. These ideas I had weren't received too kindly and I was gently reminded that I was expected to keep Feldenkrais "pure" and that by combining it with anything made it "not Feldenkrais" and therefore, "not as effective as just using Feldenkrais alone".

        That should have been a warning. I actually feel a little ticked off that I've been in the program for a year and a half and we are still stuck in this "You don't understand everything yet", "you will be shown more later as you progress" and other such nonsense.

        Don't get me wrong, I did learn how to be a little more confident in using movement in my treatment sessions, but I don't need to continue Feldenkrais classes to be at a point where I can help my clients move better.
        Last edited by rkathryn; 12-01-2014, 08:42 AM.
        "The danger is not that the soul should doubt whether there is any bread, but that, by a lie, it should persuade itself that it is not hungry" (Simone Weil)

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        • :clap2:

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          Diane
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          • Sorry gang; I’ve been away for the last little while with work etc. (I’m actually pacing back and forth between the lettebox today as I’m meant to get go/no go letter on admission to PT school)

            I’d not seen that letter from Jack Heggie before (is it from the FeldyForum archives, Ozis?). Don’t know that I agree with him fully (100%), though probably around 95%. I can def. appreciate the general sentiment (trainings don’t seem to be producing ready-to-go practitioners; why is that?).

            The thing on FI’s is especially damning; this is why I think people like Rywerant, Haller and Goldfarb (among others, I’m sure) do such important work in concertizing ‘how-to’s’ and ‘why-to’s’ I think where the process (in trainings) goes wrong is that the ‘why-to’ isn’t explained by some trainers. I suspect this reflects a bias towards one of the Feldenkraisean koans: ‘which would you rather: know how to do something or know why do it?”.

            It’s actually a deep conundrum in transmission - if you consider it - and one that I’ve thought about a little. It appears to me that what the trainings try to do is not just transfer technical hands on skill (thus, in the process, de-emphasizing them) but rather the entire Feldenkrais meme, with the intention that the meme unfolds into a coherent whole. Except…and despite perhaps best intentions…this construct fails to self-assemble in any sustainable, technically competent or predictable manner for many.

            I suspect that by trying to mimic the auto-didactic nature of Moshe’s own learning (ponder on the irony of that statement), we’ve obscured a coherent, central narrative.

            Perhaps this buffet style exposure to ideas leaves us as ‘interesting people, who do interesting things, but can’t really explain them’. I’m not sure.

            I really liked his comments regarding Moshe not being especially clear as to how to / why to re: FI. I talked to someone about this (and Moshe’s hard to read books); in fairness, English was not his 1st language (I think 5th or 6th) so that’s a factor. More to the point, maybe the guy was still working the pieces out for himself. I wonder though if we’ve inherited a kind of generational confusion (as Jack Heggie proposes) because of this?

            At the same time, I’m mindful that FI isn’t physio, dance, martial arts, psychology etc and that GCFP generally may not have a deep background in those fields and/or hands on therapy, differential diagnosis, orthopaedic test etc. So, to some extent, it’s a little like trying to knit a sofa out of spaghetti.

            In otherwords, given the way things are, I don’t envy anyone trying to put on a Feldenkrais training.

            Rajam: Not sure whether to commiserate or congratulate. Feldenkrais training was very important in my life (and I think I’ve just about broken even, cost wise), but I’m neutral as to the cost: benefit ratio for others.

            I understand the ‘don’t mix’ comment, which I think basically reflects the shu-ha-ri method of transmission (copy the pattern, question the pattern, break the pattern). Still, a little explanation as to why things are done that way in the beginning might generate more buy in.
            Last edited by Dan84; 22-01-2014, 09:15 AM.
            Dan
            Tactile Raconteur

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            • Thinking about the structure of the trainings, I'm almost reminded of this sci-fi story and GOD's ultimate solution.
              Last edited by Dan84; 22-01-2014, 08:58 AM.
              Dan
              Tactile Raconteur

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              • Don't feel sad for my decision. I once spent a good number of years hitchhiking and living on the road. Those experiences made a huge impact on my life in what I learned about myself, people and the world. Yet I wouldn't expect that you would have the same experience, or have to hitchhike in order to have those kinds of awakenings and understanding.

                I did enjoy the ATM classes though and if money weren't an issue, I probably would continue the program for that alone. Although I understand the idea behind the admonitions not to mix Feldenkrais with anything, I think that in the long run, it will become stale and rigid. I can't imagine that Moshe himself wouldn't add and expound upon his teachings, especially with what we've been learning about the brain, mind and nervous system.
                "The danger is not that the soul should doubt whether there is any bread, but that, by a lie, it should persuade itself that it is not hungry" (Simone Weil)

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                • Originally posted by mpnyo View Post
                  For any GCFPs who may be reading this...
                  Hopefully I am not the only dim one here, but it took me a while to realize GCFPs meant Guild Certified Feldenkrais Practitioners, so, I thought I would write that for anyone else coming across this thread.



                  Originally posted by rkathryn View Post
                  ...I was gently reminded that I was expected to keep Feldenkrais "pure" and that by combining it with anything made it "not Feldenkrais" and therefore, "not as effective as just using Feldenkrais alone".
                  What interesting comments from your teachers. To me, it is a sad state of affairs when the teachers don't understand the depth of the work they have in he palms of their hands and the things it can be applied to to create even greater change and augment ones work.


                  A good example of someone who does seem to get this melding of multiple works (although I have not heard him speak before) is Moti Nativ who served as the president of the Israeli Feldenkrais Guild and teaches “The Synergy of Martial Arts and the Feldenkrais Method”. I hope to be able to listen to a condensed seminar he will be hosting in a few weeks. "Moti has explored the peculiar way that brought Moshe Feldenkrais from a form of ‘street fighting’ to become a Master of Martial Arts and to develop the system of Awareness through Movement."
                  Last edited by Curious One; 22-01-2014, 06:09 PM. Reason: - add a few thoughts.
                  C.O. ( gender: ) - LMT, BS(Anatomy), DC
                  Music Fog... pick a song to listen to... you can't go wrong.
                  Need relaxation samples for your office? I have made a Deep Relaxation Massage Music Pandora Station and have others that may also be useful - about 8 massage music stations and about 49 other nifty options.

                  Comment


                  • One of my former classmates is taking classes from Larry Goldfarb. She is also a PT and feels that his classes are more getting to the "meat" of what Feldenkrais is- I'm planning on checking out his videos when I have some free time.
                    "The danger is not that the soul should doubt whether there is any bread, but that, by a lie, it should persuade itself that it is not hungry" (Simone Weil)

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Blaise
                      Let us know how you get on...
                      I'm really starting to appreciate what "Hurry up and wait" means
                      Dan
                      Tactile Raconteur

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                      • This was recently posted on Feldenkrais Facebook page as good example of how FI might (should?) be taught /done/ thought about. By combining seemingly simple principles (I posted a few on page 1 or 2; see Rywerant's Acquiring the Feldenkrais Profession for a good list), truly complex changes can emerge from simple principles (or constraints, in Feldy language)

                        Ted Talk: Complexity Theory & Puppies (Nicholas Perony)
                        Dan
                        Tactile Raconteur

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                        • This thread is so long that adding any more to it seems superfluous, but to continue with the topic of Feldenkrais trainings and why they are generally so bad, I'm linking to a good synopsis of the historical (and disputed) origins of the current hierarchy of Feldenkrais trainers:

                          http://www.ryannagy.com/2014/david-z...service-marks/

                          Mac

                          Comment


                          • Thank you Mac. I found this in reference to certification while stumbling around Nagy's blog:

                            What happens if you don’t get certified to be a trainer or decide not to be one? Not much. There is no other road for advancement within the community. The sensible thing would be not to engage in the process at all. Some people take this route. But as they cannot use the service mark terms they become “other.” They are “doing their own thing.” While others using the service marked terms present themselves as doing “true feldenkrais.” True Feldenkrais based on what again? A legal opinion on who “owns” the service marks? Not much of a basis.
                            Rod Henderson, PT, ScD, OCS
                            It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into. — Jonathan Swift

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                            • re: segueing from cognitive to actual motor skills.

                              Hi Dan,

                              I'm a Feldenkrais practitioner in NYC with a background in classical piano.

                              It sounds like what you're saying in your email (and let me know if I've mis-read/heard, etc) is that frequently Feldenkrais teachers tend to approach improving the client's function indirectly. In other words, if their backhand gives them problems, don't work directly on the tennis stroke; work on the spine, the pelvis and connect those elements to the pattern; or work towards it from another functional perspective/orientation, etc. I think your comments are generally valid as far as how most Feldenkrais practitioners are trained.

                              I'd love to go into this more at length later. For now I would suggest you watch a video of Jeff Haller (a Feldenkrais Trainer Mac has mentioned on this forum before) giving an FI lesson to a ballerina with Lisfranc dislocation. http://youtu.be/OiukopzvzKQ

                              You'll see him working with her directly in standing, lunging, lifting her leg, and eventually at the end of the lesson, on point. There is also a table portion of the lesson about 30 minutes in, but I would suggest watching the lesson as a whole experience.

                              Jeff's skill is of a different order than most Feldenkrais trainers/practitioners. His knowledge base in athletics/martial arts, etc as well as Feldenkrais allows him to enter directly into the context of the activity the person wants to improve and to work successfully within it. This is not the only way he works, just one of the many skill sets he possesses. I thought this example would add to the discussion, especially since it's on video. I'll also just remind myself here to write next about the difficulty Feldenkrais practitioners have in understanding what actually constitutes "the method".

                              Give a watch and let me know what you think. I'd love to continue the discussion.


                              Best regards,

                              Andrew Gibbons, MM, GCFP
                              Last edited by AG_NYC; 28-04-2014, 04:09 AM.

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                              • maybe I have been a PT to long, or maybe I just got to used to paying for classes and feeling underwhelmed after, but I have enjoyed my training in FM. It has generated many questions for me which have opened me up to some ideas that have made my life and practice with others more enjoyable and fulfilling, worth the price of admission, and looking forward to expanding my learning with other practitioners down the road.

                                I sort of recall PT school at this point, and I remember feeling completely disenchanted with it by the time I was approaching my time to go complete clinicals. Fortunately, I was exposed to some great clinics and PT's, one being a FP oddly enough, they were timely, as they were a reminder that school is/was not the end point of the education, more like the spring board.

                                It could be my expectations were tempered a bit because of my history, but I see the FM training similarly, and while I have had my frustrations too, I think, much like the practice of working with other people, there is a flexibility that is unlike most trainings, it generates more questions often than answers, and even the answers seem fleeting at times. The training seems as vague sometimes as my clients, I am beginning to feel more comfortable with myself in both arenas and perhaps more importantly have embraced the power the uncertainty provides.

                                just some thoughts, it has been a strange, fluctuating 3 years, some of the best of my life, anyone considering entering the training may also find it enjoyable amidst the chaos of it.
                                Last edited by wicked slow; 27-04-2014, 07:37 PM.
                                Chad Hardin PT, GCFP

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