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  • CT Am I On The Right Track?

    Hello everyone, first off I'd like to say that I was positively stunned when I found this forum. I've been lurking around for the last few days, reading a lot of very insightful and substantive discussion, all on subjects that have been tickling my fancy for months now, without any real place to actually converse about them with others (with the exception of annoying my girlfriend, hehe).

    So, I guess in order to properly present my question, I'll have to state my intent. I'm currently finishing some schooling for massage therapy and physical therapy. I really have to stipulate though that it's basically a generalized course of 1000 hours, at the end of which I'd basically be considered a glorified massage therapist - it touches a lot of medical recuperation through exercises, but it's definitely not the same as years of schooling to be a physical therapist. At the same time, I know that this forum is more specifically geared towards official physical therapists. But don't throw me out yet.

    I really enjoy doing massage and really want to see just how much I can reap from using it with the purpose of providing therapeutic benefit. I've also really been enjoying getting my hands into the various exercises of physical therapy. In this sense my interest is strongly guided by the fact that I've been grappling with carpal tunnel syndrome for awhile now and have been working on myself a lot with them, along with self-massage.

    But now more towards my inquiry, which is more directly relevant to this forum. I have a huge thirst to understand in a comprehensive and intuitive sense the way in which the body functions, especially in regards to posture and movement, starting from simple muscle anatomy to the nervous system. I've been learning a lot when it comes to all this...

    But I can sense now I'm at an inflection point, hence my inquiry. I first became acquainted with trigger points when trying to inform myself about carpal tunnel syndrome and ways to resolve the matter, especially considering my interest in massage and wanting to have a successful profession in it. This captivated me for awhile, but I soon moved on to entertaining myofascial release, especially thanks to Anatomy Trains. I've also become interested in learning more about the Feldenkrais movement education stuff, etc...

    Yet here on this forum, I've begun to dig deeper into reading a lot of criticism of this type of perspective. So far (still a lot more to read here! ), these have revolved mostly around the idea of emotions relating to the fascia and also the idea that it is actually possible to manipulate the fascia in this way.

    I've spent many years sharpening my rational mind and developing my critical thinking skills, so of course finding these kinds of skepticism here raised yellow flags. Clearly I don't want to move forward, developing a profession for myself, guided by erroneous ways of thinking. Yet I also do think there are some merits here in some of these conceptions that have been spinning in my mind. So I guess, specifically, I'm just curious how many people here do find some sort of value in things like myofascial release, structural integration, Feldenkrais, etc., or if anyone would be interested in engaging me in discussion about this to help me better formulate my ideas and set me along my way.

    Any input is most welcome! I'm definitely willing to elaborate on anything in terms of the type of view I've put together for myself so far, and also very willing to consider or assimilate any type of information put forth. I value in a very idealistic sense the scientific process as well as critical thinking, rational discernment and the like, so please don't consider me some kind of New Age fluffernaut, simply because I'm into massage and curious about these types of modalities.

  • #2
    Hi willow,
    What country are you in?
    Welcome to Somasimple.

    As long as you keep the essentials of the treatment model separate and distinct from the bizarrities of most of the explanatory models, you should be OK.
    This might help: Operator/Interactor
    Diane
    www.dermoneuromodulation.com
    SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
    HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
    Neurotonics PT Teamblog
    Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
    Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
    @PainPhysiosCan
    WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
    @WCPTPTPN
    Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

    @dfjpt
    SomaSimple on Facebook
    @somasimple

    "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

    “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

    “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

    "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

    "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

    Comment


    • #3
      Yes, what Diane said, including that word I think she made up. I really like it.

      What the heck kind of a screen name is that?
      Barrett L. Dorko

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Diane View Post
        As long as you keep the essentials of the treatment model separate and distinct from the bizarrities of most of the explanatory models, you should be OK.
        Welcome aboard, WoS...I second what Diane said as well, but will offer this KeithP translation/addendum: When you place your hands on the skin, remember that this is the only thing you can be certain of; be sure that your narratives fit best with your understanding of what science has informed us.

        Respectfully,
        Keith
        Blog: Keith's Korner
        Twitter: @18mmPT

        Comment


        • #5
          Welcome Willow,

          Your journey on this site will be confusing, enlightening, intimidating, challenging, and gratifying.

          There is a difference between therapy and training:

          Think of it this way with regards to the myriad of manual techniques: they all have a different explanation (wound fascia, stuck joints, weak cores, tight muscles, etc.) for why that particular person is experiencing pain. They all seem to work or not work at the same rate. That means that there is possible a different explanation (perhaps one that is more unifying).

          We moved up the chain, where pain truly only exists, our consciousness.

          What I have come to learn is that to be a therapist, the relationship and compassion and empathy the therapist provides far outweighs the technique provided. The care is bolstered by what we say and don't say and how we act/present ourselves.

          Diane's advice to shift the treatment encounter from a mechanistic operator (I'll fix you) to an aware interactor (what do you feel?) is sound.

          Good luck on your journey, and remember that you are safe here, but your ideas may not be.
          Nicholas Marki, P.T.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Diane View Post
            Hi willow,
            What country are you in?
            Welcome to Somasimple.
            Thanks for the greeting, I'm American but I've been in Romania for the last few years. The standards here are definitely much lower so even though the course I'm taking here covers physical therapy and I could practice here, it isn't actually anything more than an introduction. But my interest is more in massage therapy though. I'm definitely not ruling out physical therapy in the future, when I'm back in the States, I guess it'll just depend if I feel like it's a natural transition to make at that point in my practice.

            As long as you keep the essentials of the treatment model separate and distinct from the bizarrities of most of the explanatory models, you should be OK.
            This might help: Operator/Interactor
            Yes, this is the central aspect of my inquiry and the motivation for me posting - I'm curious to know to which extent the validity of myofascial release as a treatment model is dependent on the explanatory models that I've seen. I haven't actually been instructed for myofascial release, although I've started to incorporate what I can glean from the techniques via book/video into what I'm doing and so far I've been satisfied, and I really don't want to start heading down the wrong road, especially at a pretty formative time in terms of becoming a therapist.

            I read your link and liked it and definitely agree with the way it frames things.

            Why I'm at pause right now in regards to this matter is because the treatment model that I'm in the process of actively forming is definitely guided by my explanation of what's happening, and I'd feel pretty awkward about myself if I was left with "this works but I don't know why", because it leaves me with the question "does this really work? I don't know what I'm doing!"

            The only two sources I've actually derived information from regarding myofascial release are Tom Myers, Anatomy Trains, of course, and from Michael Stanborough. I've familiarized myself with their descriptions of the fascia, although I haven't fully integrated that information, and I imagine that this information is generally accepted (will verify this more as I learn more and integrate it). In terms of how the massage itself purportedly influences the fascia, I've already felt disinclined to accept the idea that the mechanical force itself being exerted on the fascia is actually capable of producing these changes. What piqued my interest and seemed more plausible is the descriptions of how these techniques influence the autonomic nervous system, the way it modulates between being dominated by the sympathetic and parasympathetic systems... and of course I've seen here that this kind of viewpoint is given a lot of credence in these parts. But I'm still curious if that has anything at all to do with the fascia, or the skin, to know better what's actually happening, because, to me, having that knowledge makes all the difference in the actual technique that would be employed, the subtleties of the force, movement, timing, etc.

            Originally posted by Barrett Dorko View Post
            Yes, what Diane said, including that word I think she made up. I really like it.

            What the heck kind of a screen name is that?
            lol, Now I realize that it probably sounds pretty New-Age, fitting with my question about myofascial release probably. I've done a lot of SEO work in the past and, registering a lot of different accounts, I've developed a habit of combining differently a set of words that I like for some reason or other. I really like the planet Saturn and like willows as well, but to a lesser intensity. hehe
            Last edited by willowsofsaturn; 08-05-2013, 02:31 PM. Reason: quote tag error

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            • #7
              Originally posted by nickmPT View Post
              What I have come to learn is that to be a therapist, the relationship and compassion and empathy the therapist provides far outweighs the technique provided.
              :thumbs_up

              I really like this. I've spent a lot of time reading books on psychotherapy (my girlfriend is licensed), and this idea is a very prominent one. Explains why Mesmer mesmerized regardless of animal magnetism being real. I've dug a lot into CBT, REBT, and Ericksonian methods, and I'm imagining that it'll come out positively in my practice.

              Comment


              • #8
                MFR: The Great Conversation.

                This is the thread where MFR was thoroughly deconstructed. Once and for all. Eviscerated.
                But MFR is such a zombie it won't stay dead. It wanders all over the world eating brains. It's a tissue based explanatory model that refuses to stay in its grave. Stay well away from it. Don't buy it. It's not real.
                Tom Meyers was here for about 5 minutes, then he left. Chaitow has never been here, but kicked me off his facebook page because I challenged his explanatory model.
                Tissue-based explanatory models are like the Dementors in Harry Potter.

                Dementors hold no true loyalty, except to whomever can provide them with the most people to feed off. They cannot be destroyed, though their numbers can be limited if the conditions in which they multiply are reduced, implying that they do die off eventually
                Diane
                www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                @PainPhysiosCan
                WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                @WCPTPTPN
                Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                @dfjpt
                SomaSimple on Facebook
                @somasimple

                "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                Comment


                • #9
                  For us manly nerds, they are more like Ringwraiths from Lord of the Rings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazg%C3%BBl).

                  Can anyone explain how you imbed the link?
                  Nicholas Marki, P.T.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Welcome WoS.

                    What Diane said. That thread is fascinating on many levels. I was into the fascia and posture and trigger points and Alouette!

                    Then I got over myself. ( well, as much as possible... )

                    And then I figured out it was all about the human being in front of me who is trying to deal with his\her human life.

                    ''When the primary complaint is pain, treatment of pain should be primary''
                    Carol Lynn Chevrier LMT
                    " The truth is, people may see things differently. But they don't really want to. '' Don Draper.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I didn't know that much about MFR - very interesting to read that long thread/conversation.
                      The battery of my Ipad is low now....

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Diane View Post
                        MFR: The Great Conversation.

                        This is the thread where MFR was thoroughly deconstructed. Once and for all. Eviscerated.
                        But MFR is such a zombie it won't stay dead. It wanders all over the world eating brains. It's a tissue based explanatory model that refuses to stay in its grave. Stay well away from it. Don't buy it. It's not real.
                        Indeed, I have been reading from that thread with a lot of interest, as well as Tom's introduction thread, which never seemed to progress past the point of introduction. Along with several other threads that are clogging my browser and pdfs that are consuming my RAM. I've been cycling through them all a bit at a time to keep my interest in each topic fresh.

                        Your warning definitely provokes caution in how willing I'd embrace as valid any particular conception in regards to this topic, rather, caution was already provoked by the strong and vigorous critique of it I've already seen here and this warning reminds me of it. lol. I do have curiosity though to better understand what's happening and where fascia fits into the picture. I don't really understand it or the nervous system except in the broadest of strokes. From what I do understand, I have the sense that fascia plays a role in the way force is passed throughout the body and in how the body's structure is maintained. So my curiosity is how this influences the way the nervous system functions, what kind of feedback it is providing in determining if pain responses should be generated, or in the way that movements are articulated. Again, this curiosity stems from wanting to better conceptualize the nature of the effects I have through massage and eventually movement education.

                        I know it'd be easy to fault me for lack of specialized knowledge, and recognize that my curiosity might not exist if it were not for the lack of that knowledge, but at the moment it's the line of inquiry that is guiding the way I acquire that knowledge. The warning is nice but the foundation for it is what I'm driving after, 'cause I don't have it yet.

                        Originally posted by caro View Post
                        And then I figured out it was all about the human being in front of me who is trying to deal with his\her human life.

                        ''When the primary complaint is pain, treatment of pain should be primary''
                        I appreciate this a lot. I've had a handful of very significant occurrences where I was setting out to do massage, to roll out my technique in the way that I had conceptualized it, when someone had some sort of ache or pain, only to find that when I'd enter that area, I'd invoke a stronger pain response, a red flag to dramatically switch course. So then I'd start with the assumption that I don't actually know or understand what was happening, and start exploring the area carefully, with the intent to understand. I'd end up trying completely new things and learned a lot about how to be more responsive to what was presenting itself, as opposed to just thinking I already knew what to do.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by lancebevers88
                          So how is [URL="http://www.erinmillshealth.com/naturopathy-treatments.php"]Naturopathic Chiropractors connected with this?
                          It seems the connection would be a bad attempt at spamming a forum for SEO, considering that the link didn't even work.
                          Last edited by Diane; 10-05-2013, 05:20 PM. Reason: link killed

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