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  • CT Mick Thacker's thoughts on pain

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    Last edited by AdamB; 29-09-2015, 11:02 PM.

  • #2
    :clap2::clap2::clap2:

    You are doing a FABulous job, being an archivist, Adam! Thank you!
    Diane
    www.dermoneuromodulation.com
    SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
    HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
    Neurotonics PT Teamblog
    Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
    Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
    @PainPhysiosCan
    WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
    @WCPTPTPN
    Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

    @dfjpt
    SomaSimple on Facebook
    @somasimple

    "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

    “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

    “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

    "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

    "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

    Comment


    • #3
      This is excellent, thanks for bringing it to my attention Adam.

      Eric
      --------------------------------------------------------------
      Body is imbued with mind, and mind is embodied.

      Comment


      • #4
        Thanks for taking the time to contribute these Adam. Fantastic.
        Carol Lynn Chevrier LMT
        " The truth is, people may see things differently. But they don't really want to. '' Don Draper.

        Comment


        • #5
          Bookends for Mac
          Joseph Brence, DPT, FAAOMPT, COMT, DAC
          "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds" - Albert Einstein
          Blog: www.forwardthinkingpt.com

          Comment


          • #6
            Thank you Adam.
            I concur with most of what Mick Thacker says, highlighted by you above.. however, I don't agree the bolded part of this sentence:
            Due to our need to compartmentalise thinking and establish isolated fields of study (particularly in medicine to allow for specialisms) we have overlooked the critical synergy between the immune and nervous systems and more importantly that the nervous system and immune system are one and the same.
            Elsewhere I've seen him refer to Schwann cells as being immune cells, which would to me, lump them in with lymphocytes and mast cells, etc. I hate to keep harping on embryology.. but seriously, they are not the same. Which isn't to say that Schwann cells can't secrete similar proteins and annoy nociceptors, etc... they can, and do - neurons themselves can annoy each other with their ordinary secretions.

            The entire physicality of the body is like an ecosystem, to me - if each cell is looked at as a tiny creature living out a life span, of course it takes in sustenance from its environment, and of course it will excrete - all creatures do. As long as there is enough circulation none of these substances will stay around long enough in one place to annoy any other creatures.

            I get that immune system is for protecting the entire organism, and the nervous system (especially peripheral) is all about protecting the organism, but to declare the two are one and the same is taking it a bit far, IMO.

            You know his work better than anyone else here - do you know why he says that?

            Also, side note, evernote was hacked..
            Diane
            www.dermoneuromodulation.com
            SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
            HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
            Neurotonics PT Teamblog
            Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
            Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
            @PainPhysiosCan
            WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
            @WCPTPTPN
            Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

            @dfjpt
            SomaSimple on Facebook
            @somasimple

            "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

            “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

            “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

            "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

            "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

            Comment


            • #7
              Adam,

              thanks for that continuing with a British pain/philosophy slant I have attended this groups meetings and will do so again this summer . The past transcripts are available here http://www.britishpainsociety.org/me...philosophy.htm
              The meetings i have been to have been extremely thought provoking and last year Ray Tallis and Havi Carel spoke .There thinking and talks are still fresh in my mind and influence me a great deal .
              Interesting that Mick is moving in this direction with his thinking and approach . I went to the first weeks course with Louis Mick and Dave Butler a long time ago pre sensitive nervous system ---it killed all promotion prospects in the conventional outpatients setting but allowed me to remain interested for a few more years .

              Comment


              • #8
                Adam, hold on to your head bits because your thread is very interesting.
                i like the 'aporia' definition.

                Nari

                Comment


                • #9
                  I like aporia, too. It brings another way of conceptualising the experience that drives our professional lives. I have not a clue how I am going to use it clinically. Too many models in my head already. Even trying to explain in to my colleagues...
                  Many thanks for all of this Adam - I have been interested in this for sometime but not so interested as to actually get off my arse. Thank you for harvesting, blending and spoonfeeding me. I note in passing in the second presentation Thacker quotes another piece of work on acupuncture on a rubber hand. 24 out of 28 got deqi.
                  Kind thoughts,
                  Steve
                  Peering over the shoulders of giants.

                  Know pain. Know gain.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hi Adam,
                    I have not got the paper Thacker refers to however the picture of the fMRI provokes the thought that we will have to up the resolution on fMRI astronomically to expect to resolve the neuromatrix in action. Also the wide range of differences in normal brain morphology may yet make the statistical analysis of fMRI like this something that is unsafe to conjecture on. Which is annoying because fMRI held so much promise, like MRI did, and XR too. Hmmm.
                    Kind thoughts,
                    Steve
                    Peering over the shoulders of giants.

                    Know pain. Know gain.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Here is the Mouraux paper (actually Iannetti & Mouraux paper): From the neuromatrix to the pain matrix (and back) [open access pdf]

                      Here is a link to another paper along similar lines, Mouraux also involved: The Pain Matrix Reloaded: A Salience Detection System for the Body.
                      Diane
                      www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                      SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                      HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                      Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                      Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                      Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                      @PainPhysiosCan
                      WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                      @WCPTPTPN
                      Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                      @dfjpt
                      SomaSimple on Facebook
                      @somasimple

                      "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                      “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                      “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                      "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                      "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by AdamB
                        I get the sense that he advocates that we should be careful of reducing the persons pain experience to some specific/particular mechanism(s).
                        That it will always be a lived experience combining a tremendous amount of factors that we can never fully control.
                        That if we study the mechanisms separately we will only ever get a part of the picture and if we focus on that particular part of the picture/mechanism we will fall in the trap of categorical thinking.

                        I don't get the sense of dualistic philosophical thinking (matter and non-matter) - from the slides it seems like he acknowledges that the pain experience arises from the persons biology, but that it can never be reduced to a specific mechanism or even a specific combination of mechanisms that can deliberately be inhibited og facilitated and then expect a specific result. With emergence comes also unpredictability.

                        I think his views are extremely interesting in that he has been studying the ANS for a long time and started out with Wall and kind of following in his footsteps it seems.

                        That's my take so far - but I'm just thinking/typing out loud. There's lots in here in SS about chaos/emergence, consciousness, monism/dualism that I'm still digging out from the deep thinkers in this forum. Thank you for that.
                        I agree - this lines up with the ineffability of consciousness itself as an emergent phenomenon. I.e., pain and consciousness are in the same league, sort of.

                        I loved the Legrain paper for that example at the end - if you see a wasp coming at you your salience detection system will be aroused at the sight of the wasp and your action program to defend yourself will kick in - no actual nociception need be involved at all.

                        About consciousness, when Robert Burton was interviewed by Ginger Campbell he said consciousness was kind of like a cake. You can study the ingredients of the cake, the flour, the water, the egg, etc., but none of them makes a cake by itself, and once the cake is baked, you can't take it apart back down to its ingredients. Or something to that effect. Anyway, the point being that the cake (as an emergent phenomenon) is something a bit beyond where we have the capacity to go and analyze at present.
                        Diane
                        www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                        SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                        HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                        Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                        Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                        Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                        @PainPhysiosCan
                        WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                        @WCPTPTPN
                        Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                        @dfjpt
                        SomaSimple on Facebook
                        @somasimple

                        "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                        “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                        “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                        "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                        "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          This reminds me of something I heard a while back....,"It's intention that bakes the cake."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Adam, can you provide me the source/paper from which you quoted the quote I took exception to in post 8?
                            Due to our need to compartmentalise thinking and establish isolated fields of study (particularly in medicine to allow for specialisms) we have overlooked the critical synergy between the immune and nervous systems and more importantly that the nervous system and immune system are one and the same.
                            Diane
                            www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                            SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                            HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                            Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                            Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                            Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                            @PainPhysiosCan
                            WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                            @WCPTPTPN
                            Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                            @dfjpt
                            SomaSimple on Facebook
                            @somasimple

                            "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                            “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                            “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                            "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                            "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              That was fast - thanks!
                              Diane
                              www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                              SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                              HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                              Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                              Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                              Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                              @PainPhysiosCan
                              WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                              @WCPTPTPN
                              Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                              @dfjpt
                              SomaSimple on Facebook
                              @somasimple

                              "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                              “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                              “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                              "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                              "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                              Comment

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