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  • #46
    Thanks Andy. I see the Kindle version is a slightly better price then the paper back, so it might find it's way into my library at some time.
    Kory Zimney, PT, DPT

    http://koryzimney.blogspot.com

    "Study principles not methods, a mind that can grasp principles will create its own methods." - Gill

    "All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them." - Galileo Galilei

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    • #47
      this might give some insights. All nine parts are available on the directors channel, some more pertinent than others.

      regards ANdy
      "Here is Edward Bear coming downstairs now, bump, bump, bump, on the back of his head behind Christopher Robin. It is, as far as he knows, the only way of coming downstairs, but sometimes he feels that there is another way, if only he could stop bumping for a moment and think of it." A.A. Milne

      Comment


      • #48
        Andy, you keep coming up with some great stuff that I need to keep reading and viewing, this could start to become work.


        Summary of post #39:
        Treatment of emergent systems and the conditions that arise from it, one needs to look at the whole culture and not constituent parts. This is best done with altering the context of the culture (increased self efficacy and knowledge along with reshaping beliefs and behaviors) where the individual functions.


        Upon doing some more research about Turkheimer and the Gloomy Prospect I came up with this.
        Gloomy prospect: the possibility that human behavior will always be too complex, and too prone to the idiosyncratic influences of feedback loops, to yield much to the reductionistic approaches of behavioral genetics. Not so gloomy as it is more humanistic to pigeon hold anyone on a reductionalistic category.

        Leon Eisenberg (1988) has made a similar point, saying that there is a paradox to sciences involving humans, that “what is believed to be true about behavior affects the very behavior which it purports to explain.”


        He regards poverty as an emergent system. It does not have a single cause, nor do lower intelligence test scores. As an analogy, you cannot find in an American all the traits of American society, just as you cannot find in a Japanese or Mexican the entire personality of their societies. The societies are part of systems that cannot be broken down into constituent parts and be understood. They must be understood as a whole.

        Over the years Turkheimer was able to identify the cumulative effects of poverty but, upon examining likely "culprits" influencing intelligence, he realized that they were emergent, part of a complex system, and changing a few culprits to help IQ was like trying to catch water in a sieve. It couldn't be done. The entire system of poverty as an emergent phenomenon was responsible.
        I really like the line: "...like trying to catch water in a sieve." I think of this with trying to treat persistent pain problems with constituent parts such as posture, stability, TrP, etc.

        Last quote from the text as originally transcribed in post #2:

        The difficult thing about emergence is that it is very hard in emergent systems to find the “root cause” of any problem. The positive side is that if you have negative cascades producing bad outcomes, it is also possible to have positive cascades producing good ones. Once you have a positive set of cultural cues, you can get a happy avalanche as productive influences feed on and reinforce one another.
        Treatment needs to also focus on positive sets of cultural cues to reinforce one another to slowly reverse the Gloomy Prospect.
        Kory Zimney, PT, DPT

        http://koryzimney.blogspot.com

        "Study principles not methods, a mind that can grasp principles will create its own methods." - Gill

        "All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them." - Galileo Galilei

        Comment


        • #49
          An emergent nervous system (Body-Self Neuromatrix) has the capacity to produce an output of an emergent condition called pain. Factors from the constituent parts (cognitive, sensory, affective) of the Body-Self can contribute to this emergent condition.

          That emergent condition (Pain) will have properties of the tenets of emergent systems.

          Tenets of an emergent system:
          1) They are nonlinear in nature. Even if some of the constituent parts in isolation are linear, once they are put into the emergent system they fall under the property of that emergent system and will become nonlinear.
          2) No single constituent part can be responsible for the emergent system. The sum of the parts is always less then the product of the whole emergent system.

          3) It is possible to show how emergent conditions can roughly affect large groups through correlations and those correlations have some limited value. But it is impossible to show how constituent part causes the emergent condition in any given individual, causation is obscured in the darkness of the Gloomy Prospect.

          Treatment of Emergent Systems and conditions that arise from it:
          One needs to look at the whole culture and not constituent parts as it will be difficult to find a root cause. Treatment will be most effective when altering the context of the culture (increased self efficacy and knowledge along with reshaping beliefs and behaviors) where the individual functions.
          This is done with a focus on positive sets of cultural cues (functional improvements) to reinforce one another to slowly reverse the Gloomy Prospect.
          Kory Zimney, PT, DPT

          http://koryzimney.blogspot.com

          "Study principles not methods, a mind that can grasp principles will create its own methods." - Gill

          "All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them." - Galileo Galilei

          Comment


          • #50
            Hi kory,

            Great stuff in this thread. This question popped up while skimmed over the thread. Ill take a closer look to see if it's already answered but I'll ask here anyway.

            Given that pain is an emergent property, does that make it a yes/no proposition? i.e. There is a perfect storm of factors feeding the left side of the matrix = pain... Or there isn't. If pain is an emergent system, how does it account for varying degrees of pain intensity. Is every pain experience an isolated and unique emergent system?

            Cheers,

            Pat

            Comment


            • #51
              Is the claim about strong emergence or weak emergence?
              Strong emergence is a logical absurdity but weak is not.

              Now here comes the problem with weak emergence and the human brain. If the human brain is defined by physical measures as in neurology texts then qualitative experiences such as pain arising from a physically defined brain is strong emergence which is an absurdity.

              To avoid this and use the logically coherent notion of weak emergence, one needs to have non-physically defined subjective experiential properties associated with brains. The only metaphysical positions I know of that do that and remain monism's are Idealism or the Pan-experientialism of Process Philosophy.

              Emergence: Recommended Reading List

              Online papers and blogs:

              Marco Biagini: Scientific contradictions in materialism: emergent and holistic properties, complexity, etc.

              David J. Chalmers: Strong and Weak Emergence

              Galen Strawson: Realistic monism: why physicalism entails panpsychism

              John Gregg: What kinds of things are there, really?

              Michael Huemer: The Philosophical Complaint against Emergence

              Panexperientialism Blog

              Sean Robsville: Consciousness and mind as emergent phenomena or emergent properties of the brain

              Todd Moody: Consciousness and complexity

              I also recommend the posts by the user pl0bs on the philosophy forum of rationalskepticism.org. He seems very knowledgable with regard to emergence.

              Books:

              # Skrbina, D. (2005). Panpsychism in the West, Cambridge, MA: MIT Press.

              # Skrbina, D. (ed). (2009). Mind That Abides: Panpsychism in the New Millennium, Amsterdam: John Benjamins.

              # Strawson, G. (2006). Consciousness and Its Place in Nature: Does Physicalism Entail Panpsychism?, A. Freeman (ed.), Exeter: Imprint Academic.
              Last edited by mszlazak; 03-04-2012, 07:59 PM.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by PatrickL View Post
                Hi kory,

                Great stuff in this thread. This question popped up while skimmed over the thread. Ill take a closer look to see if it's already answered but I'll ask here anyway.

                Given that pain is an emergent property, does that make it a yes/no proposition? i.e. There is a perfect storm of factors feeding the left side of the matrix = pain... Or there isn't. If pain is an emergent system, how does it account for varying degrees of pain intensity. Is every pain experience an isolated and unique emergent system?

                Cheers,

                Pat
                My best understanding and thoughts are that the varying degrees of pain intensity is all apart of the right side with pain perception, so I don't think it would be a yes/no proposition. Pain perception is the sum of the sensory, affective and cognitive dimensions in the neuromatrix. Knowing that the brain is plastic and we have memory, each and every pain experience would be a unique experience in of itself. It is based on current context and past beliefs, knowledge and experiences all of which are changing and never static from one event to another.

                That is why no single intervention that may have been successful in the past is guaranteed to work again in the future. But good news is interventions that may have failed in the past, may be sufficient in the future.
                Kory Zimney, PT, DPT

                http://koryzimney.blogspot.com

                "Study principles not methods, a mind that can grasp principles will create its own methods." - Gill

                "All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them." - Galileo Galilei

                Comment


                • #53
                  I should add this one reference since it has more direct relevance to neuro-psychology. The link is to a Google book preview so a few chapters can be read online.

                  Neuropsychology and Philosophy of Mind in Process: Essays in Honor of Jason Brown.

                  UPDATE: The Safari browser lets you preview other chapters than those visible on Firefox.
                  Last edited by mszlazak; 06-04-2012, 07:46 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Interesting Mark but I am not sure how this adds to the discussion as it stands. Yes we could get buried into the arguments around emergence, supervenience and physicalism but there does not seem to be a clear answer other than a dualism is not readily acceptable (to most). In some cases the treatment of the matter risks being both trite and almost facile e.g. Biagini although I accept he is seeking to make a point he does so in a style that I do not find helpful as it seems to depend as much upon argumentative style as substance.

                    I guess the matter raises fundamental issues of both ontology and epistemology that are not part of the curriculum of many therapy or medical schools. It may be that it should be but given how quickly philosophy descends (or ascends) into argument about argument how much of it is actually useful in this setting and how much time can be spent within that setting grasping all the (very) many nuances of argument about physicalism and the many attendant discussions it gives rise to.

                    Given your philosophical bent how do you see this circle being squared, can we cut this gordian knot?

                    regards

                    ANdy

                    Originally posted by mszlazak View Post
                    Is the claim about strong emergence or weak emergence?
                    Strong emergence is a logical absurdity but weak is not.

                    Now here comes the problem with weak emergence and the human brain. If the human brain is defined by physical measures as in neurology texts then qualitative experiences such as pain arising from a physically defined brain is strong emergence which is an absurdity.

                    To avoid this and use the logically coherent notion of weak emergence, one needs to have non-physically defined subjective experiential properties associated with brains. The only metaphysical positions I know of that do that and remain monism's are Idealism or the Pan-experientialism of Process Philosophy.

                    Emergence: Recommended Reading List

                    Online papers and blogs:

                    Marco Biagini: Scientific contradictions in materialism: emergent and holistic properties, complexity, etc.

                    David J. Chalmers: Strong and Weak Emergence

                    Galen Strawson: Realistic monism: why physicalism entails panpsychism

                    John Gregg: What kinds of things are there, really?

                    Michael Huemer: The Philosophical Complaint against Emergence

                    Panexperientialism Blog

                    Sean Robsville: Consciousness and mind as emergent phenomena or emergent properties of the brain

                    Todd Moody: Consciousness and complexity

                    I also recommend the posts by the user pl0bs on the philosophy forum of rationalskepticism.org. He seems very knowledgable with regard to emergence.

                    Books:

                    # Skrbina, D. (2005). Panpsychism in the West, Cambridge, MA: MIT Press.

                    # Skrbina, D. (ed). (2009). Mind That Abides: Panpsychism in the New Millennium, Amsterdam: John Benjamins.

                    # Strawson, G. (2006). Consciousness and Its Place in Nature: Does Physicalism Entail Panpsychism?, A. Freeman (ed.), Exeter: Imprint Academic.
                    "Here is Edward Bear coming downstairs now, bump, bump, bump, on the back of his head behind Christopher Robin. It is, as far as he knows, the only way of coming downstairs, but sometimes he feels that there is another way, if only he could stop bumping for a moment and think of it." A.A. Milne

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by amacs View Post
                      Interesting Mark but I am not sure how this adds to the discussion as it stands. Yes we could get buried into the arguments around emergence, supervenience and physicalism but there does not seem to be a clear answer other than a dualism is not readily acceptable (to most). In some cases the treatment of the matter risks being both trite and almost facile e.g. Biagini although I accept he is seeking to make a point he does so in a style that I do not find helpful as it seems to depend as much upon argumentative style as substance.

                      I guess the matter raises fundamental issues of both ontology and epistemology that are not part of the curriculum of many therapy or medical schools. It may be that it should be but given how quickly philosophy descends (or ascends) into argument about argument how much of it is actually useful in this setting and how much time can be spent within that setting grasping all the (very) many nuances of argument about physicalism and the many attendant discussions it gives rise to.

                      Given your philosophical bent how do you see this circle being squared, can we cut this gordian knot?

                      regards

                      ANdy
                      The criticism is important to shake people from their dogmatic slumbers if they are open enough. Others may react in denial and can be forced into deception about their views.

                      What I gave in my posts was a very good alternative in process philosophy.

                      Dualism isn't the only or best alternative as one should have gathered from my previous post.

                      Never the less, I'll go through this again but also indicate the degree of changes that can happen with change to the process perspective.

                      Process philosophy is associated with pan-experientialism, pan-temporalism and does NOT involve substance metaphysics like materialism or dualism.

                      When you change metaphysical perspective to the one I'm suggesting then EVERYTHING changes because you are now in a new language system that will be used by various disciplines like science, art, politics, ecology, economics, spirituality and religion.

                      Examples of changes range from the concepts of time, space and causality; how perception is understood; nature of the self; mental-like force/influences being real, self-determining and ubiquitous; economic activity, etc.

                      Look with your Safari browser at Cobb's chapter "The Scope of Relevance of Process Thought" in the Google book preview linked to previously. He talks about how various disciplines can be affected. Also, this explains the resistance to change because these are large disruptions in worldview.

                      Again, the BIG plus is that this realist and naturalist position actually solves the mind/body problem without all the issues/baggage associated with dualism and materialism. It also accords with scientific findings AND hard-core common sense. Read here for more:

                      Panexperientialism: How It Overcomes the Problems of Dualism & Materialism


                      On a more relevant note is that models of brain function can be totally reversed or "turned on their head" in this view. Here is an example from Jason W. Brown's book "Neuropsychological Foundations of Conscious Experience."


                      The standard connectionist model (Fig. 1a) describes how sensory data are thought to arrive in visual cortex, where specialized cells, or feature detectors, receive information regarding lines and angles. A preliminary construct is then assembled to a three-dimensional object in a transition from V-1 to V-4, where the resultant construct is associated to systems in limbic-temporal lobe for recognition, i.e. matching to memory images, and to parietal lobes for updating the object in relation to its changing spatial environment Fig. 1. Two models of how visual perception occurs in the monkey brain (after Deacon 1992). In the standard assembly model (a), there is a “forward” progression from primary visual cortex to association areas, as the object is constructed. In contrast, the microgenetic account (b) reverses this direction, with the perception developing from upper brainstem (not shown) through limbic regions and from V-4 towards V-1. The standard model is a construction theory. The microgenetic model is a specification theory. In (a), sensation provides the building blocks of perception. In (b), sensation serves to constrain, delimit or sculpt an endogenous process of whole-part transition to form a model of the world. The standard account (a) is linear and concatenated and unrelated to evolutionary growth trends. The microgenetic account (b) is recurrent, and reflects the direction of evolutionary growth of the forebrain. ...
                      FIGURE 1 is attached.

                      Now I'm interested in how this view effects models of pain and asked Jason Brown. He emailed me this brief reply as a start:

                      I think pain should be approached like any perception, except that is does not externalize, stays in the body, more primitive, relates to more archaic neural structures but does have neocortical representation... clinical disorders like pain asymbolia, lobotomy, in which pain is said to persist without its noxious quality, phantom pain, etc.
                      So, there is vestibular perception organized about the body midline, pain within and on body surface, audition, which parasitizes visual space, vision which creates it own series of space forms - dream or egocentric, close to the body, as in the space of the congenitally blind, and extensive space, successive levels or space realization. My approach to pcptn is detailed in a recent compilation, Neuropsych Foundations of Cs Experience, Chromatika 2010
                      I haven't written much about pain since my book, Aphasia, Apraxia, Agnosia in ?1972 but this is how I would approach it.
                      Best regards, Jason
                      BTW if you want the book he mentions above, I have a pdf that I can share.

                      Also, when you have the time. Go through this series of lectures by Eric Weiss. Even though he is dealing with topics you may not believe in, his exchange with students will help orientate you to the basic process perspective. Eric of course extends it into other realms but the issue of emergence is fundamental in doing this so it can serve as a hypothetical exercise.

                      Science and the Transphysical World


                      FINALLY, one should consider that no philosophical view will be perfect or error free or be THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH. Post-modernism has taught us that. We are not looking for foundations anymore but a fallible universalism. Our planet desperately needs it.

                      -----
                      Attached Files
                      Last edited by mszlazak; 09-04-2012, 06:25 PM.

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                      • #56
                        Here is where turbulence lurks, where the mysteries of neurophysiology take root, and the secrets of DNA are hidden. Bruce 2006
                        in reference to the complexity curve and how at its peak all factors are known yet "turbulence lurks"

                        It is the failure to acknowledge that medical phenomena are balanced on this peak of complexity that has led to so much misunderstanding in medical science ibid.
                        ANdy
                        Last edited by amacs; 23-04-2012, 01:20 AM.
                        "Here is Edward Bear coming downstairs now, bump, bump, bump, on the back of his head behind Christopher Robin. It is, as far as he knows, the only way of coming downstairs, but sometimes he feels that there is another way, if only he could stop bumping for a moment and think of it." A.A. Milne

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          I think a link to this paper by Moseley and Thacker fits nicely into this thread. See here for the PDF at Body in Mind titled: "First-person neuroscience and the understanding of pain".
                          Kory Zimney, PT, DPT

                          http://koryzimney.blogspot.com

                          "Study principles not methods, a mind that can grasp principles will create its own methods." - Gill

                          "All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them." - Galileo Galilei

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            philosophy...

                            Thanks for alerting me to this ....really good . I have been saying this for years so have many others . The ideas of Merleau Ponty would be a good start or Illness by Havi Carel is a brilliant first person account by a philosopher on living with illness and how philosophy can inform behaviour...Highly recommended ... She is talking at the UK pain and ethics group this year which I intend to go to . http://www.amazon.co.uk/Illness-Art-.../dp/1844651525

                            Its interesting that a brand new course which I would loved to have taken covers some of these topics ---embodied cognition in Edinburgh...

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