Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Conversations with an Osteopath

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Yes Byron.

    This is very like telling the Pope not to be Catholic.
    Barrett L. Dorko

    Comment


    • #47
      I know, I know. You guys told me so. Do I at least get my boyscout badge for follow through and technique?
      He is taking his marbles and going home. Oh well.

      What is interesting is the tactics that I see being employed to undermine my position without directly facing the points I am making. I know everyone else here has had endless experience with this but I have not had much.

      Anyhow, thanks to all of you that added your comments. Here is the Dear John letter.

      Thank you for getting back to me. I mean no offense (honestly). You have some strong opinions about the validity of my future profession, so I think it is fair to call you out on those opinions, and question their origins. My intention is to examine whether what you are expressing is just the tip of the iceberg with regards to your knowledge, or simply a facade pieced together from other people's opinions. I'm still not sure.

      Your argument is typically "this doesn't make sense to me, so I don't believe it". My argument is that none of this has even had a chance to make sense to you because up to this point it has essentially been a hobby. And I do not mean that as an insult, I have had hobbies and they are enriching experiences. However, there is a point during deep study of a topic where you realize just how much you don't know yet. However, there is also a point much earlier in the process where people have just enough information to think they know what's going on. I think there is a saying about how a little bit of information is dangerous.

      To me, your world is very flat Byron. History is littered with people who said "it doesn't make sense to me. It can't be done". One good one:

      The abdomen, the chest and the brain will forever be shut from the intrusion of the wise and humane surgeon.
      - Sir John Eric Ericson, Surgeon to Queen Victoria, 1873

      or

      There is not the slightest indication that [nuclear energy] will ever be obtainable. It would mean that the atom would have to be shattered at will.
      - Albert Einstein, 1932.

      Everyone is entitled to an opinion. You and Sir John Eric Ericson have a lot in common. Your conclusions are drawn according to the available scientific evidence of a specific time and place. No one can be faulted for that. The majority of experts in the field probably clapped him on the back and said, "yes, you're right." And look at Einstein's quote, for goodness sakes. The point is, none of us knows, so why put on airs?
      You are welcome to say that visceral manipulation and PRM don't make sense to you so you don't believe they exist. However, what I think would be most productive and fair is if you properly qualified your opinion, along the lines of "I have no previous studies or experience in visceral manipulation, I essentially know nothing about it, but it doesn't make sense to me". Then the discussion is framed accordingly and we can proceed on that basis.
      Thank you for answering the CPR question. There is a big difference between "skipping ahead" and dancing around the question. I have no previous studies in precognitive abilities, I essentially know nothing about it, but it doesn't make sense to me (see? it's easy). If you give the thread of conversation a chance instead of trying to see 5 moves into the future, you might be surprised.
      When you say you would do CPR, it frames in our discussion a little better. It means that with regards to using the hands to create a response in the organs that will help the patient, we are no longer in disagreement. We can now agree that it is possible, that it is widely taught and accepted in this form, and that it is appropriate in the right circumstances.
      We now also know that manipulation of certain organs makes sense to you on a mechanical level, it is just a question of the appropriate degree of force. You see, this lands us at a new point in the discussion. I would propose that it is more productive than the skipping ahead method.
      I really don't like doing this but I have to say... Karate? Byron. I cannot understand how your brain works. But here is how mine reads your analogy:
      CPR - life saving effort. Intention: using compression and ventilation to maintain organ viability for defibrillation attempt
      Visceral manipulation in general - Intention: improve function of organ system, benefit patient
      Karate - Intention: strike to wound, inflict pain on, incapacitate, or kill opponent to eliminate threat in defense of self
      Massage: systematic therapeutic friction, stroking, or kneading of the body

      One of these things does not belong in your analogy. I hope we can agree on which one. I've come to the conclusion that there can be no further productive discussion on this topic between the two of us. You appear to be, on a deep level, a conformist (at least judging by this ongoing debate). I would say that I am not. We definitely don't agree on which way the wind is blowing in the world of health care. The Karate comment was just too much for me, how can I argue with that kind of logic? Maybe you're right and the world is flat Byron, who knows? Just keep on saying "it doesn't make sense to me. It can't be done." I love hearing that from people. We'll pick up this conversation again in about 20 years.
      It's been a hoot! Let's grab a beer at some point and talk about other things.
      Thanks!
      Byron Selorme -SomaSimpleton and Science Based Yoga Educator
      Shavasana Yoga Center

      "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" Richard Feynman

      Comment


      • #48
        There you go, Bryon.

        You're a conformist, and he is not.

        What else do you need?
        Luke Rickards
        Osteopath

        Comment


        • #49
          Wow, Byron! I can't believe he pulled the "conformist" card on you.

          I would plead guilty to that charge if it means conforming to the rigors of the scientific method. He, on the other hand, doesn't seem to conform to any principled approach to discovery.

          His last reply to you was extremely condescending. I wouldn't even want to have a beer with a guy like that.

          By the way, I don't think the quote from Einstein was so much a prediction as much as it was his opinion of the current state of the evidence for nuclear energy. Furthermore, he made this statement just before emigrating from Germany to the U.S. to escape the rise of the Nazis. So, he may have been bluffing a bit. As always, context is critical.
          John Ware, PT
          Fellow of the American Academy of Orthopedic Manual Physical Therapists
          "Nothing can bring a man peace but the triumph of principles." -R.W. Emerson
          “If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things. If language be not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot
          be carried on to success.” -The Analects of Confucius, Book 13, Verse 3

          Comment


          • #50
            He might as well have begun: I am now about to squash you like the bug I think you are.

            Ignore this guy. He has nothing useful to say to us or about the body's ability to change.
            Barrett L. Dorko

            Comment


            • #51
              I don't think he was being aggressive. I think he felt his dopamine slipping away, so he felt obliged to retreat to the illusory safety of his elaborately constructed belief system, which is so unwieldy he can't take it anywhere. Like an eel in a cave. If it were truly useful he could go roaming all over the place with it and be able to defend it on any turf at all, effortlessly. Like a shark. Whose teeth are made of actual science.

              It seemed to me he was being stiffly polite but not abusive.
              The fact he won't consider his own story at this point means he's precontemplative about learning how to use Occam's razor on himself.
              He is closer to it, now that Byron has had at him.
              Diane
              www.dermoneuromodulation.com
              SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
              HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
              Neurotonics PT Teamblog
              Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
              Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
              @PainPhysiosCan
              WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
              @WCPTPTPN
              Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

              @dfjpt
              SomaSimple on Facebook
              @somasimple

              "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

              “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

              “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

              "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

              "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

              Comment


              • #52
                Byron, congrats on your impressive patience with this one.
                He did fall back on accusing the critic instead of considering the critique itself. The little dance steps around " your level of knowledge" and so forth are indicators of you getting a bit too close for comfort. And thus, the old warhorse of "science doesn't know everything" is trotted out.

                You got too close.
                We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin

                I suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
                Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

                Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

                We don't need a body to feel a body. Ronald Melzack

                Comment


                • #53
                  Thank you guys.

                  I didn't miss the fact that his words were only cloaked with niceness. It is surprising how the psychology of the whole thing developed. I know lots of people who know way more than I do about many things who would reply very differently to my questions.

                  And I liked the Karate vs Massage analogy too. I thought "hey this is a good one" :teeth:.
                  I do wonder what he would have attacked if I had left that out though.
                  Like I said. I consider it practice and it was good for that at least. Eventually, as Diane puts it, pooh will be flung.
                  Byron Selorme -SomaSimpleton and Science Based Yoga Educator
                  Shavasana Yoga Center

                  "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" Richard Feynman

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by byronselorme View Post
                    Like I said. I consider it practice and it was good for that at least. Eventually, as Diane puts it, pooh will be flung.
                    There always is. Pooh shields up!
                    Diane
                    www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                    SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                    HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                    Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                    Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                    Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                    @PainPhysiosCan
                    WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                    @WCPTPTPN
                    Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                    @dfjpt
                    SomaSimple on Facebook
                    @somasimple

                    "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                    “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                    “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                    "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                    "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Hey - leave Pooh alone!!
                      "Here is Edward Bear coming downstairs now, bump, bump, bump, on the back of his head behind Christopher Robin. It is, as far as he knows, the only way of coming downstairs, but sometimes he feels that there is another way, if only he could stop bumping for a moment and think of it." A.A. Milne

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        All apologies to Pooh anDY.

                        By the way. I always love reading your quote
                        "Here is Edward Bear, coming downstairs now, bump, bump, bump, on the back of his head, behind Christopher Robin. It is, as far as he knows, the only way of coming downstairs, but sometimes he feels that there really is another way, if only he could stop bumping for a moment and think of it." A.A.Milne
                        The unassuming way in which Milne causes me to take that different perspective. :thumbs_up I only hope that I can find a way to do that in conversation.
                        Byron Selorme -SomaSimpleton and Science Based Yoga Educator
                        Shavasana Yoga Center

                        "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" Richard Feynman

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Winnie the Pooh P.T.
                          Barrett L. Dorko

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Hey cool! I read the Tao of Pooh a long time ago. I'll have to pull that out again.

                            This stood out for me
                            In fact, when traditional manual care is augmented with the common cultural admonitions to appear a certain way, there is little room left for the acceptance, quiet contemplation and introspective discovery that typifies natural processes.
                            Byron Selorme -SomaSimpleton and Science Based Yoga Educator
                            Shavasana Yoga Center

                            "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" Richard Feynman

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              For the record, I'm for a strict delineation between poo and pooh.
                              John Ware, PT
                              Fellow of the American Academy of Orthopedic Manual Physical Therapists
                              "Nothing can bring a man peace but the triumph of principles." -R.W. Emerson
                              “If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things. If language be not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot
                              be carried on to success.” -The Analects of Confucius, Book 13, Verse 3

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Promising

                                I forwarded Jason's recent video by Will on Crossing the Chasm to my friend. I was happy to hear his reply.

                                Hi Byron,

                                Thank you for the video! Jason has a good perspective, I think. I can say I probably don't think enough in terms of neuroscience when I am attempting to treat somatic dysfunction. It is an adjustment I think I need to make as I try to take that next step.

                                I have been wondering how you were doing, and how your search for answers is progressing. I have been exploring the possibilities with social media to interact with the world, and to discuss osteopathy and athletic therapy. One of the points made by a few social media experts is that you must learn to interact in a positive way with people who don't see things the way you do, and to take criticism gracefully. I must apologize for being oversensitive. It is a difficult point in one's career to get close to the end of your studies and realize that it will take decades before developing a true understanding of what is actually happening during treatment. I have to get used to not having all of the answers, and to somehow be okay with that! (not easy)

                                I have been a chronic pain sufferer as well. I have had pain around the thoracic spine every day since 2002, and I have been looking for answers. It was one of the reasons I moved in my current career direction. I hoped the process would help me find the key. Nothing I have found so far has corrected the situation. Although there has been improvement with ongoing osteopathic treatment, the pain is still there.

                                I have long abandoned the idea that there is a magic spinal adjustment that will fix things, or a magic stretch that will suddenly set things free. There is obviously a deeper issue here. There is clearly myofascial dysfunction, but the question in my mind is "what is driving it?" The fact that I can have it treated (eg. massage) to reduce the myofascial tension, only to watch it re-create itself within 2-3 days tells me the nervous system is driving this pattern to meet its own ends. But what ends?

                                I have had patients like me, and they are the ones I feel for the most. The ones with upper thoracic pain following a car accident have been the most difficult. Sometimes I will see results, but I would not say I've seen a dramatic or permanent change. Increasingly I am wondering, "what is driving this?"

                                My understanding of neuroscience needs to mature. I know the founder of the Osteopathy college has gone very far in that direction. He goes into detail about the neurological processes involved in pain perception and how it affects treatment for the pain itself, but his courses on that topic are post-grad, so I won't be going there for a few years. I wouldn't be ready for it at this point anyway. My hands have a long way to go yet.

                                So will osteopathy give me the answers I am looking for? I don't know yet. Even if it does, it will probably be another 10-20 years before I begin to understand it all, and maybe a lot longer than that.

                                As for the thoracic spine pain, I think it will be there for some time. Perhaps it was originally a somatic dysfunction, that is now so deeply ingrained in the nervous system that somatic treatment isn't quite reaching it. Perhaps it has been neurological from the very beginning and that drove the somatic dysfunction (and continues to).

                                It actually might be a good thing that you and I see things so differently. Maybe if we both keep turning over different rocks, then one of us will find a solution. Maybe the solution will come because of collaboration at some point.

                                I certainly hope one of us figures out the problem! Pain free would be nice, for a change.

                                Thanks Byron!
                                I replied to him with this. I think I have explained my current level of understanding pretty clearly.

                                I am very impressed by the maturity in this email you sent. It is indeed very interesting that we are both suffering similar pain issues for almost the same amount of time.
                                Also, I am sure I still have plenty of things to learn about how to express my ideas and to disagree with someone else who has dissimilar views from my own in a constructive way.


                                I think it is what we do afterwards that shows who we are.


                                I am currently working with a PT in Hamilton who is conversant in the current neuroscience surrounding pain. We are working with the following ideas:


                                1) Pain is an output from the brain.
                                2) Pain is a bio-psychosocial phenomena.
                                3) Chronic pain leads to neuroplastic changes that need a steady consistent and gentle approach to instigate positive rewiring.
                                4) The nervous system is highly sensitized with chronic pain.
                                5) Addressing oxygen restrictions to cutaneous nerves by gentle manual manipulation can aid in teaching the nervous system to down-regulate the threat.
                                6) In chronic non-cancer related pain, tissue damage and joint displacement is highly unlikely to be related to the pain experience.
                                7) There is some evidence that lateral differentiation isn't as well defined in someone who are suffering chronic pain
                                8) A graded exposure approach of slowly increasing the ability to differentiate sides of the body (left / right) moving to a mirror therapy approach then a gradual increase in desired activity has shown to be effective and promising
                                9) A resolution phase has been subverted in the normal Withdraw - Guard - Resolve response to real or perceived injury.
                                10) Resolution can also be suppressed by certain cultural restrictions (ideas of posture, sitting still, muscle imbalances etc)
                                11) Finding environments and therapeutic situations that invite this resolution phase can also aid in pain reduction.



                                I have a target of being ready for some hard labour in the fall (roofing) and I hope that following this approach for that period of time will prove successful. If yes I will definitely let you know.


                                There is an interesting program on youtube by BBC called "The secret world of pain" There are a couple errors (minor) regarding pain being Perceived by the brain (it's not, it is produced by it) and another talking about pain pathways (again pain is produced by the brain so pain doesn't travel up a pathway to ring a bell in the brain as previously thought). But overall it is quite good.


                                It is in 4 parts, here is part 1



                                I really have to follow the science about the most recent pain research carefully. It all points to CNS and the interpretations of the brain about the perceived threat.


                                We'll see how it goes. I am hopeful

                                Byron
                                Last edited by byronselorme; 26-05-2014, 03:44 PM.
                                Byron Selorme -SomaSimpleton and Science Based Yoga Educator
                                Shavasana Yoga Center

                                "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" Richard Feynman

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X