Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

What is an "ectodermal approach" versus a "mesodermal approach"?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • What is an "ectodermal approach" versus a "mesodermal approach"?

    Since it is all my fault these terms have come into our PT world, I feel I should explain what I mean by them.


    How these terms came to be

    A few years ago I laid out the embryologic unfoldment of the human body in a series of threads which now reside in a folder called "In the Beginning". I deliberately pointed out, highlighted, drew attention to the differences that exist between mesodermal derivatives and ectodermal derivatives.

    1. Ectoderm makes everything, including germ cells, mesenchyme and fetal endoderm:
    • germ cells are the first cell line to be differentiated; they split off and hang around in the egg yolk for awhile - once the gonads are built, they are drawn into the body and find their home inside them.
    • mesenchyme later diffentiates into about 5 "family" groups, turns itself into all the structural elements and much of the blood system
    • fetal endoderm turns into linings for tubes and ducts in the fetus (extraembryonic endoderm comes from the original egg and becomes amniotic sac, membranes etc.)


    2. Ectoderm saves itself for building structures which will be heavily signalling in function. As such, ectodermal derivatives do not take up as much room. They do, however, consume a much larger share of available energy/oxygen.

    3. Bear in mind this division of labor is all orchestrated by cells that are originally in the ectoderm layer. The outside builds the inside.

    4. Ectoderm then becomes spinal cord, brain, neural crest cells and the outer skin layer. Neural crest cells turn into peripheral neurons, and various kinds of "sensitive" structural elements (which is different functionally than ordinary mesoderm in that it is more sensitive, more signalling): e.g. teeth, some bits in the throat, adrenal gland medullas, chromaffin tissue.

    5. Mesoderm becomes 98% of the body but uses only 80% of available oxygen. Ectoderm becomes only 2% of the body but uses 20% of the available oxygen. You can see here that ectodermal derivatives are expensive, which is why there is less of them on a weigh scale.

    6. The ectodermal derivatives are 100% responsible for function in the body, including faulty or magnificent movement, coordination, etc. They are also 100% responsible for pain generation and perception. Children born without pain perception bite their tongues and lips off, gouge out their eyes, break their legs and burn their skin, because they do not feel the warnings of nociception, and usually die young from all the trauma they've never learned to avoid.

    7. One can view the ectodermal derivatives as a sensory net that reaches all mesodermal tissue derivatives, and provides motor output to some of them.

    8. Neuronal cells have a very high surface area per unit volume compared to mesodermal cells, which are more spherical in shape. Jack Nolte, a neuroanatomist, has been quoted as saying (Encyclopedia of the Brain) that if a soma of a neuron were enlarged to the size of a tennis ball, its axon would extend a half mile and would be the size of a garden hose - its dendrites would fill a small room. Their shape means that there need only be three cells spanning the distance between, say, the big toe and the S1M1 map of the toe in the brain.
    By contrast, mesodermal cells do not have long projections or very much surface area at all. They cling together with bits of molecular glue called integrins, which keep them from pulling apart. They do not signal much or very far away from themselves. Instead, movement excites mechanoreceptors (ectoderm, not mesoderm) which are buried all over into the mesoderm like little roots.


    So, why bother differentiating derivatives?

    When dealing with persistent pain problems, it is useful to a practitioner as a thought exercise to separate the two kinds of derivatives. It doesn't matter that this persistent pain is felt in one region over another, or that you put your hands on body parts and push here and pull there. Understanding where the "pain" perception is being generated is what is important. Persistent pain is generated by the nervous system in one "place" and projected to the nervous system in another "place". These places include actual physical body zones, and the representational "maps" in the brain - you can treat both at once. It's useful for patients to understand this as well, so they don't go around blaming parts of their body for their pain or thinking that they need to get bits of themselves amputated.

    Of all the various depths of body parts/layers, the representational map for the skin layer is one we are the most familiar with, i.e. the Penfield homuncular map over the top of the brain, also known as S1M1. It is the most easily accessed in manual therapy. Making a change in skin by handling skin and its innervation appropriately will provide the brain with novel input which could assist it in re-edging its other maps, and produce new output, including less pain production or different pain perception.

    Generally an outside-layer/S1M1 ectodermal consideration is eclipsed entirely by concern about/over mesodermal "structure". "Mesodermal" approaches to manual therapy ignore this "ectodermal" consideration (skin sensitivity/excitability) because of history and treatment construct, and therefore find it difficult to see any point or relevance in studying it. Ignoring this easily accessed mechanism via the skin, considering only that which lies beneath (fascia, bones, joints, muscles), is what I call "mesodermal" approach or mentality. Meanwhile, practitioners are "treating" the skin/ectoderm by default whether they realize they are or not, because of its location between their hands and the mesodermal target they think they should be after, with associated mechanoreceptors which many by now, to their credit, recognize as inseparable.

    In any other "science", this oversight would be recognized as a "confounding factor". And it is, to treatment constructs. Ways should be devised to correct the problem. Because it is impossible to remove the confounding factor by removing skin, then seeing if "pushing" on the joint/bone/fascia or muscle still elicited the same treatment effect, the next best way to solve the problem is to devise ways by which only the skin (ectoderm) is considered, skin deep ways of treating, avoiding deeper mechanoreceptors, to see if desired results can still be obtained.

    My own opinion is:
    • we could make treatment life a lot easier for both ourselves and our patients, and understand pain science a lot easier, by learning the distinction between mesodermal and ectodermal derivatives and not letting them remain blurred together in a mental mishmash;
    • we could explain a lot of CAM approaches better, from a more robust and much less pseudoscientific frame, if ectodermal considerations, brain science and pain science were examined first;
    • manual treatment could be made a lot lighter and a lot more comfortable for patients if this distinction were better understood.
    Last edited by Diane; 05-03-2008, 06:19 PM.
    Diane
    www.dermoneuromodulation.com
    SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
    HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
    Neurotonics PT Teamblog
    Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
    Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
    @PainPhysiosCan
    WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
    @WCPTPTPN
    Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

    @dfjpt
    SomaSimple on Facebook
    @somasimple

    "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

    “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

    “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

    "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

    "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

  • #2
    Originally posted by Diane View Post
    6. The ectodermal derivatives are 100% responsible for function in the body, including faulty or magnificent movement, coordination, etc.
    When you say ectodermal derivatives, do you mean the mesoderm? If you don't mean the mesoderm, why does the mesoderm exist? If the ectoderm is 100% responsible for function, the mesoderm is the appendix of embryology?

    They are also 100% responsible for pain generation and perception. Children born without pain perception bite their tongues and lips off, gouge out their eyes, break their legs and burn their skin, because they do not feel the warnings of nociception, and usually die young from all the trauma they've never learned to avoid.
    Interesting phenomenon. I have never heard of before, what is the name of this condition?

    Instead, movement excites mechanoreceptors (ectoderm, not mesoderm) which are buried all over into the mesoderm like little roots.
    So it would be safe to say they are interdependent? What would the function of mechanoreceptors be without mesoderm to embed?
    Of all the various depths of body parts/layers, the representational map for the skin layer is one we are the most familiar with, i.e. the Penfield homuncular map over the top of the brain, also known as S1M1. It is the most easily accessed in manual therapy. Making a change in skin by handling skin and its innervation appropriately will provide the brain with novel input which could assist it in re-edging its other maps, and produce new output, including less pain production or different pain perception.
    What kind of physiologic change occurs in the skin? How do you know when the skin is changed? Also what parameters define handling it's innervation appropriately or inappropriately?
    Generally an outside-layer/S1M1 ectodermal consideration is eclipsed entirely by concern about/over mesodermal "structure". "Mesodermal" approaches to manual therapy ignore this "ectodermal" consideration (skin sensitivity/excitability) because of history and treatment construct, and therefore find it difficult to see any point or relevance in studying it.
    I couldn't agree more with you here. I think it is important to learn more about their relationships vs diving directly into the mechanical components.
    My own opinion is:
    • we could make treatment life a lot easier for both ourselves and our patients, and understand pain science a lot easier, by learning the distinction between mesodermal and ectodermal derivatives and not letting them remain blurred together in a mental mishmash
    This is where I couldn't disagree more Diane. What benefit is there in distiguishing the two phenomenon when they are inextricably tied together? The potential pitfall to your approach is no different than the pitfall of a purely mechanical approach.

    • we could explain a lot of CAM approaches better, from a more robust and much less pseudoscientific frame, if ectodermal considerations, brain science and pain science were examined first;
    • manual treatment could be made a lot lighter and a lot more comfortable for patients if this distinction were better understood.
    Right. I think you made a good point here: the distinctions are not well understood at this point. As such, it makes no reasonable sense to devote our efforts purely to one specific approach over the other. The mental mishmash is going to have to be cleared up before we can confidently use terms like "100%", "always", and "never".

    I go back to what I mentioned in an earlier thread. I think there are some great things to take away from on this and other forums. I think we gain little by taking an absolutist approach however. The debate and dialog can continue along a productive line if the silly labeling and back-handed name calling died down.
    Rod Henderson, PT, ScD, OCS
    It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into. — Jonathan Swift

    Comment


    • #3
      Mesoderm is a designation for a specific tissue, not a derogatory name.

      There's NOTHING silly in Diane's description and if you don't yet understand that mesoderm responds to coercion and ectoderm to communication you may soon enough. The impact of this on manual care is huge.
      Barrett L. Dorko

      Comment


      • #4
        When you say ectodermal derivatives, do you mean the mesoderm?
        No. Once a mesenchymal layer is (essentially) "sloughed off" by the primitive ectodermal layer in an embryo, they cease to have very much to do with each other. When I say ectodermal derivatives, I mean the things that ectoderm itself becomes.
        If you don't mean the mesoderm, why does the mesoderm exist?
        I think it exists to becomes tool like structures, provide leverage, greater mechanical advantage, that sort of thing, at less cost to the overall organism.
        If the ectoderm is 100% responsible for function, the mesoderm is the appendix of embryology?
        No. The derivatives of mesoderm are more like the stuffing in a pillow or the insulation in a wall or the framework of a house. Their job is structural as opposed to signalling.
        Interesting phenomenon. I have never heard of before, what is the name of this condition?
        I will look it up. There was a 20/20 program about it a few nights ago. Someone at EIM started a thread about it on the pain forum there.
        So it would be safe to say they are interdependent?
        I guess you mean ectoderm derivatives and mesoderm derivatives. Sure, why not? But ectoderm can live without mesoderm much easier than mesoderm can live without ectoderm, functionally speaking.
        What would the function of mechanoreceptors be without mesoderm to embed?
        They wouldn't need to exist, except perhaps in the outer membrane of the "animal", which would likely then be able to exist only at a much smaller scale, like earthworm size maybe.
        What kind of physiologic change occurs in the skin?
        Mechanoreceptors are deformed and fire, exteroceptive (large myelinated) and interoceptive fibres are excited, reflexive blood flow mechanisms are stimulated, (small) neural tunnels are excited, the brain goes into alert mode, the S1M1 map starts to light up.
        How do you know when the skin is changed?
        Same way you would know if a "joint" has changed, likely.. you surmise the amount and quality based on new motor output, like relaxation, increased range, less pain, those sorts of things we are always looking for.
        Also what parameters define handling it's innervation appropriately or inappropriately?
        Comfortableness to the patient. Instructing them to tell you if they experience any discomfort from the handling. Impressing upon them that the intention is to give the brain no further discomfort to have to deal with, but rather to help it devise new options which may include less pain output.
        This is where I couldn't disagree more Diane. What benefit is there in distiguishing the two phenomenon when they are inextricably tied together?
        Because learning to distinguish the two, even as a thought exercise, would help prevent PT practitioners
        • from falling in pseudoscientific quicksand, mind traps like the MFR one JFB got going, and the many that SMT is slowly being extracted out of;
        • from falling permanently into either of the two main camps in PT, ortho and neuro.

        The potential pitfall to your approach is no different than the pitfall of a purely mechanical approach.
        There likely are pitfalls, but none so large as the pitfall of obtuse and deliberate ignorance of the bigger picture of the human organism and how it works.
        The mental mishmash is going to have to be cleared up before we can confidently use terms like "100%", "always", and "never".
        OK, ok, I take your point.
        I go back to what I mentioned in an earlier thread. I think there are some great things to take away from on this and other forums. I think we gain little by taking an absolutist approach however. The debate and dialog can continue along a productive line if the silly labeling and back-handed name calling died down.
        I agree completely. Further to this point, when people proclaim SMT and other bits and dabs from the orthodigm as the be-all and end-all of manual treatment, or that only the ortho (i.e., meso)-digm deserves to use the name physical therapy, I get a bit allergic myself.
        Last edited by Diane; 24-02-2008, 11:47 PM.
        Diane
        www.dermoneuromodulation.com
        SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
        HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
        Neurotonics PT Teamblog
        Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
        Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
        @PainPhysiosCan
        WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
        @WCPTPTPN
        Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

        @dfjpt
        SomaSimple on Facebook
        @somasimple

        "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

        “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

        “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

        "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

        "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

        Comment


        • #5
          Diane, this is an excellent summary of the ecto/mesodermal relationship.

          Rod, there are no true absolutes in science when it comes to managing patients. A mesodermalist primarily thinks in terms of mesodermal structures in general ortho-based approaches. I did say primarily; it doesn't mean he/she ignores ectoderm totally, but the vital role of the ectoderm is usually misunderstood or not known.

          I carry the title of neuronut evangelist in my userCP; I was given this title. Part of the reason I am happy with it is the fact that more PTs need to know they can't affect mesoderm without affecting the skin.
          It can never be cancelled out of the equation; therefore it must be seriously considered in every clinical approach. Skin "talks" to the brain; mesoderm, as far as we know, does not.

          Nari
          Last edited by nari; 24-02-2008, 11:55 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Here is a paper on congenital insensitivity to pain that refers to a family of disorders, Congenital Analgesia. I think there are various names within the family. "Hereditary Sensory Autonomic Neuropathy Type IV" mentioned on EIM suggests there are likely types I, II, and III, if not V or VI or higher..
            Back in with this. Looks to be five types documented.
            Last edited by Diane; 25-02-2008, 12:08 AM.
            Diane
            www.dermoneuromodulation.com
            SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
            HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
            Neurotonics PT Teamblog
            Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
            Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
            @PainPhysiosCan
            WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
            @WCPTPTPN
            Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

            @dfjpt
            SomaSimple on Facebook
            @somasimple

            "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

            “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

            “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

            "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

            "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Barrett Dorko View Post
              Mesoderm is a designation for a specific tissue, not a derogatory name.

              There's NOTHING silly in Diane's description and if you don't yet understand that mesoderm responds to coercion and ectoderm to communication you may soon enough. The impact of this on manual care is huge.
              Right. Mesoderm is not a degrogatory name, but in the context of how it is often used on this board (ie mesodermalist using orthodigms) it contributes little to the conversation and simply serves to inflame.

              Also...I hope you are not referring to me. I never referred to anything Diane said as "silly". The language you choose to use in describing phenomenon is very political. You use words like "coersion" to describe the effect of mechanical therapy and "communication" for your proposed methods. These are not political idologies, although some treat them as such.

              I feel like I need to shout this again for the cheap seats: Neither you nor I know enough about various conditions to bring them to an immediate and effective resolution. I think a taste of humility in this sense might be good for all involved in the study of human movement science.

              If you have all the answers, publish the data linking a specific treatment to a sailient and measuralble change in the pathology and I will be all ears. Until then, your methods are just another piece of the puzzle - just like ours.
              Rod Henderson, PT, ScD, OCS
              It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into. — Jonathan Swift

              Comment


              • #8
                Neither you nor I know enough about various conditions to bring them to an immediate and effective resolution.
                I would beg to differ. We are starting to know an awful lot more about the manufacture and behaviour of pain patterns and how they interact with movement patterns than we used to, because of neuroscience, not because of orthoscience. It provides a better trail to follow, for practitoners who want to help their patients overcome pain felt in the body.

                Really Rod, you are starting to sound a bit peeved. You knew what you'd be coming into before you came here, so if you can't take the heat, there's no reason for you to stay in the kitchen let alone keep your hand in contact with the big red burner in the lower right hand corner of the stove top.
                Diane
                www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                @PainPhysiosCan
                WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                @WCPTPTPN
                Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                @dfjpt
                SomaSimple on Facebook
                @somasimple

                "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Diane View Post
                  There likely are pitfalls, but none so large as the pitfall of obtuse and deliberate ignorance of the bigger picture of the human organism and how it works. OK, ok, I take your point. I agree completely. Further to this point, when people proclaim SMT and other bits and dabs from the orthodigm as the be-all and end-all of manual treatment, or that only the ortho (i.e., meso)-digm deserves to use the name physical therapy, I get a bit allergic myself.
                  Our conversations are certainly leading me to review my physiology. Pain and now embryology. Always good mental exercise for me.

                  Again, no one is talking about "obtuse and deliberate ignorance of the human organism". When did that come across in any of my posts? By the way, at what point does the mechanical approach become obtuse? Obtuse as you've defined it? Again, you seem to speak as if you are an authority or arbiter of this issue. I have a very hard time with this. There are no authorities and no proofs. Only experts and support. Present your case with reason and all the other superfluous ad hom's become...well superfluous.

                  If you could distill your message in a way that is less alienating, I think some of the really fascinating filtrate would make it into mainstream practice.
                  Rod Henderson, PT, ScD, OCS
                  It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into. — Jonathan Swift

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Diane View Post
                    Really Rod, you are starting to sound a bit peeved. You knew what you'd be coming into before you came here, so if you can't take the heat, there's no reason for you to stay in the kitchen let alone keep your hand in contact with the big red burner in the lower right hand corner of the stove top.
                    Again I think you are having a difficult time addressing the fact that you may not be 100% correct. And yes, if someone takes my posts out of context, I will certainly be happy to correct them. I have avoided the use of ad hom and misrepresentations of other posts. At no point have I said anyone was "silly" or described anyone's viewpoint as "obtuse".

                    If the debate cannot adhere to facts and continues to drift into misrepresentation and exaggeration, then you are right. I will have difficulty carrying on a meaningful debate. It is not a level of discourse that benefits anyone. You have salient points. I have salient points. I think we can articulate them without the "If you don't like it...get out" attitude.
                    Rod Henderson, PT, ScD, OCS
                    It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into. — Jonathan Swift

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Again, no one is talking about "obtuse and deliberate ignorance of the human organism". When did that come across in any of my posts?
                      I did NOT mean you Rob, I meant the general (low) level of knowledge and understanding in our profession of the materials we are dealing with, and apparent cluelessness of directions taken in attempts (however genuine) to understand things better. Pain science is the trail of neon, lit-up bread crumbs we need to help us get out of the woods. This whole forum functions as a showcase for this (third) way of painscience-supported thinking about treatment, neither "ortho" nor "pseudo". Please do not feel personally affronted by anything you read here. Please do not feel personally affronted by anything Barrett says. It's not about you - we get that you are here with some curiosity and no desire to overturn our board. It's about the general mentality of practitoners, lazy thinking habits, no real demonstration of intelligence, no apparent curiosity or drive to understand, just cult adherence and boring outdated or pseudoscientific constructs that aren't worth the intellectual powder to shoot a rat. (Just a saying - I've got nothing against rats.)
                      Last edited by Diane; 25-02-2008, 02:32 AM.
                      Diane
                      www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                      SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                      HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                      Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                      Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                      Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                      @PainPhysiosCan
                      WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                      @WCPTPTPN
                      Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                      @dfjpt
                      SomaSimple on Facebook
                      @somasimple

                      "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                      “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                      “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                      "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                      "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        If you have all the answers, publish the data
                        Do yourself a favor and don't imply that anyone here has suggested such a thing - you'll be asked to back it up.
                        Barrett L. Dorko

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Barrett Dorko View Post
                          .. if you don't yet understand that mesoderm responds to coercion and ectoderm to communication you may soon enough
                          I am fully prepared to back it up. You say the above as if I have to accept it as a proof. Yes. I have an appreciation that the relationship between the ectoderm and mesoderm exists, but I don't presume to know the intricate details of this relationship. I don't think there is enough evidence out there to support your proclamation.

                          Be patient with those of us who still have something to learn.:angel:
                          Last edited by HeadStrongPT; 25-02-2008, 01:15 AM. Reason: Texas spelling
                          Rod Henderson, PT, ScD, OCS
                          It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into. — Jonathan Swift

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I have an appreciation that the relationship between the ectoderm and mesoderm exists, but I don't presume to know the details of this relationship. I don't think there is enough evidence out there to support your proclamation.
                            There is if you know where to look. (Hint - it won't be in ordinary PT literature probably - look to pain science or neuroscience, and then look for PT literature that has examined these, like Butler, Moseley, Gifford..)

                            Be patient with those of us who still have something to learn. :angel:
                            If you really want to learn, we are the soul of patience around here - it's why we're here. :angel:
                            Diane
                            www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                            SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                            HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                            Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                            Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                            Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                            @PainPhysiosCan
                            WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                            @WCPTPTPN
                            Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                            @dfjpt
                            SomaSimple on Facebook
                            @somasimple

                            "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                            “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                            “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                            "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                            "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Don't worry Diane. I'll keep my eyes and mind open for any plausable explanations out there. Again, this forum has been a great source of information in the short time I've been around. Like I said, just be patient with me as I'm not easily led and often need to independently verify things before embracing a particular idea.
                              Rod Henderson, PT, ScD, OCS
                              It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into. — Jonathan Swift

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X