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Nari's thread: Skin rules!!

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  • #76
    OK, Jane, I see your points, and agree. DNM makes more sense than NDM the way you have spelled it out. I bow to your common sense.

    Jane, I've thought of doing studies etc., Butler thinks a cadaveric skin study would be good to start with, and now that the name has finally been sorted out, I think the last major cognitive obstacle has disappeared. The only hurdles left between me and publishing studies etc., are that I lack the requisite hawkishness (drive), contacts, formal education (graduated 35 years ago before PT was steeped in this), and know-how. I'd love if someone else took on the academic aspects and I just kept on peacefully writing my non-academic book about the whole body.
    Diane
    www.dermoneuromodulation.com
    SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
    HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
    Neurotonics PT Teamblog
    Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
    Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
    @PainPhysiosCan
    WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
    @WCPTPTPN
    Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

    @dfjpt
    SomaSimple on Facebook
    @somasimple

    "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

    “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

    “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

    "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

    "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

    Comment


    • #77
      I'm wondering if anyone else sees the impossibility of continuing to ignore the fact that skin receptors are the ends of actual dendrites. I was cloudy on this for a good long time, thought that only axons were inside nerves. Gray's finally straightened me out. It's a crucial bit of info that is never emphasized, and if forgotten or misplaced or never taught properly in the first place, as a basic principle, you'll be left to wander down so many dead end garden paths, lost in the maze.

      Since August, I contacted an anatomy professor at UBC who said she'd let me into the lab to look closer at skin, in the New Year. Also, an ex-classmate of mine with a PhD in research design, offered to set up a SSRD with me to study the effects of DNM, longterm. This fell from the sky into my lap, and I accepted with gratitude.

      This is already starting with the first subject due for treatment in January. I've been meaning to ask her, and will ask her tomorrow, but in the meantime, does anyone know the official length of time researchers have declared to be long-enough term results that they can't be brushed off as "placebo"?
      Diane
      www.dermoneuromodulation.com
      SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
      HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
      Neurotonics PT Teamblog
      Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
      Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
      @PainPhysiosCan
      WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
      @WCPTPTPN
      Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

      @dfjpt
      SomaSimple on Facebook
      @somasimple

      "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

      “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

      “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

      "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

      "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

      Comment


      • #78
        No bites.
        Any rough ideas? Six weeks? Six months? Six years?
        Diane
        www.dermoneuromodulation.com
        SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
        HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
        Neurotonics PT Teamblog
        Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
        Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
        @PainPhysiosCan
        WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
        @WCPTPTPN
        Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

        @dfjpt
        SomaSimple on Facebook
        @somasimple

        "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

        “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

        “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

        "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

        "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

        Comment


        • #79
          Diane, I'm not sure I understand your question, specifically the relationship between duration of treatment effect and placebo. I'm not sure you can say that because a treatment effect lasts for x amount of time that it is or isn't due to placebo.

          If it was me, I'd do a follow up at the most 3 months down the road, maybe less. Any longer than that and well, lots of life can happen leading to any number of potentially confounding factors. Much easier for you too. You're less likely to lose track of your subjects.

          Eric
          Eric Matheson, PT

          Comment


          • #80
            If a treatment effect lasts x months, it may be due to placebo and treatment. Placebo (or nocebo) response is present in every situation or encounter, so I'm not sure you could ever separate the two effects....
            Wonder if David might have some clues on that? Try NOI.

            Nari

            Comment


            • #81
              Thanks Narie and Eric. I know that placebo is desireable as per Wall.. the best kind is the kind that is elicited by the patient's own brain etc.

              As far as I'm concerned the best kind is the permanent form of Wall's version. I'm certainly not trying to avoid eliciting placebo. All I'm doing is trying to find out how long an effect that is positive has to last before it's no longer considered "merely" placebo according to whatever official researcherdom decides is the cutoff time when official non-desireable imaginary placebo "effect" usually wears off.

              I asked my research friend and she didn't actually have any answer either. Maybe there isn't one. Three months sounds good Eric.
              Diane
              www.dermoneuromodulation.com
              SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
              HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
              Neurotonics PT Teamblog
              Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
              Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
              @PainPhysiosCan
              WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
              @WCPTPTPN
              Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

              @dfjpt
              SomaSimple on Facebook
              @somasimple

              "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

              “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

              “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

              "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

              "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

              Comment


              • #82
                I don't think there's an answer to that Diane. You'd probably be better off looking at other statistical parameters like the size of the effect and the probability that the effect is due to more than chance alone.

                eric
                Eric Matheson, PT

                Comment


                • #83
                  Oops, forgot you're only planning on doing a single subject design. My suggestions for statistical analysis may be off target. I'm definately no statistician.
                  Eric Matheson, PT

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Diane
                    I'm wondering if anyone else sees the impossibility of continuing to ignore the fact that skin receptors are the ends of actual dendrites.
                    Many dendrites end in muscles, bones... :angel:
                    Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
                    We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

                    Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
                    If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
                    bernard

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Yes, but you can't "touch" them, and even if you could they don't make it quickly up to S1. :angel:
                      Diane
                      www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                      SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                      HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                      Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                      Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                      Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                      @PainPhysiosCan
                      WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                      @WCPTPTPN
                      Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                      @dfjpt
                      SomaSimple on Facebook
                      @somasimple

                      "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                      “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                      “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                      "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                      "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Diane,

                        I'll play the Devil's advocate and say that muscles have the fastest mechanoreceptors and nerves "protect" their muscles fibres at the center. (It doesn't matter if the sensitive part is injured, It does if you can't move). :angel:

                        I think if is not necessary to be touched, it is necessary to be moved and the skin is thus "touched". :angel:
                        Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
                        We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

                        Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
                        If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
                        bernard

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          I wouldn't disagree with that Bernard.
                          Diane
                          www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                          SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                          HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                          Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                          Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                          Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                          @PainPhysiosCan
                          WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                          @WCPTPTPN
                          Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                          @dfjpt
                          SomaSimple on Facebook
                          @somasimple

                          "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                          “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                          “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                          "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                          "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Diane, from what I know, there is NO standard time frame for placebo effect. NONE. It is not considered a parameter in the interpretation of placebo.
                            We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin

                            I suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
                            Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

                            Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

                            We don't need a body to feel a body. Ronald Melzack

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Hmmnnn.
                              Well, isn't that interesting.
                              Thanks Bas.

                              Does this mean that the tossing out of the derisive, "That's just placebo effect" by mesodermalists means zip?
                              Diane
                              www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                              SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                              HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                              Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                              Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                              Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                              @PainPhysiosCan
                              WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                              @WCPTPTPN
                              Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                              @dfjpt
                              SomaSimple on Facebook
                              @somasimple

                              "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                              “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                              “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                              "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                              "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Diane,

                                "Zip" may be a little harsh. I would more likely say, "They don't really know what they're talking about."

                                Does that sound better?

                                In Erie PA a few months ago a woman in the class said while watching someone change quite beneficially while in my hands that this was just because I was "a charming man." Immediately several in the class objected. "He's not charming at all," said one in the front row.

                                So, I guess placebo doesn't explain much about my success either, when it does occur.
                                Barrett L. Dorko

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