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The first ever DNM study the planet has seen

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  • #16
    Too bad Diane. I was looking forward to having some "data" for my colleagues who are always wondering what the heck I'm doing. I always just reply "stretching skin" and tell then to google your name. I don't think that has ever happened.

    Anyway, I thought you might like to know that I'm pretty much closing in on a 100% sucess rate (well...maybe around 80%) for my "lateral epicondylitis" patients. Applying DNM only (with K-tape between sessions).

    That Dx used to bring me nothing but grief but to my astonishment...that DNM technique produces some truly unbelievable results.

    Unfortunately, I haven't been able to apply it to other areas with equal sucess. But I am now quite certain there is something to this DNM stuff.

    Comment


    • #17
      Yeah... designing something that can capture this kind of clinical observation, get a good statistical snapshot, put it in the literature, is really really hard to do.
      For me to do, anyway. Some mountains I just can't climb.
      Diane
      www.dermoneuromodulation.com
      SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
      HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
      Neurotonics PT Teamblog
      Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
      Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
      @PainPhysiosCan
      WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
      @WCPTPTPN
      Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

      @dfjpt
      SomaSimple on Facebook
      @somasimple

      "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

      “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

      “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

      "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

      "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Diane View Post
        Yeah... designing something that can capture this kind of clinical observation, get a good statistical snapshot, put it in the literature, is really really hard to do.
        For me to do, anyway. Some mountains I just can't climb.
        This is where your network comes to play. You are largely dependent on your network for finance, time, treatment, etc. etc. I don't envy you the job...

        Come to think of it, small datasets aren't unusual for prelimenary studies. So don't throw everything away. If it's due to dropouts, design and introduction are still usable. Maybe even datasets. If you want you can send me the introduction and methods, and think about it.

        Bob
        The final test of a theory is its capacity to solve the problems which originated it - George Dantzig

        Comment


        • #19
          Thank you - that is a kind offer.
          I'll contact Angela and see what she thinks. She has the organized file with everything in it. Only intro/methods?

          The clincher against publishing was the opinion by a colleague who examined the data long after it had been collected who said she didn't trust it as the majority of it looked to have been backfilled, not enough variability.

          Her entire PhD was on variability. She developed an app for kids with RA to use to submit pain scores at specific times of the day. Their phone would remind them to pop in a pain score for how they felt, right at that moment. This way they would have fresh input every time, and pain variability could be more accurately measured.
          Diane
          www.dermoneuromodulation.com
          SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
          HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
          Neurotonics PT Teamblog
          Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
          Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
          @PainPhysiosCan
          WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
          @WCPTPTPN
          Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

          @dfjpt
          SomaSimple on Facebook
          @somasimple

          "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

          “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

          “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

          "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

          "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Diane View Post
            Thank you - that is a kind offer.
            I'll contact Angela and see what she thinks. She has the organized file with everything in it. Only intro/methods?

            The clincher against publishing was the opinion by a colleague who examined the data long after it had been collected who said she didn't trust it as the majority of it looked to have been backfilled, not enough variability.

            Her entire PhD was on variability. She developed an app for kids with RA to use to submit pain scores at specific times of the day. Their phone would remind them to pop in a pain score for how they felt, right at that moment. This way they would have fresh input every time, and pain variability could be more accurately measured.
            Let's first assess intro and method, and then see what we can make of it. You can discuss variability as a remakable character in the discussion. From de intro and method we can determine proper statistics. If it is indeed a small amount of data, you might consider putting it away in a stem-and-leaf plot, this enables the reader to form it's own suspiscion or trust on the raw data. Descriptive data are usual for a first study.

            If it's a first study, you ought to find some Publisher willing to publish.

            Results however are not yet my concern. Let's first take a look at the intro and method.

            Bob
            The final test of a theory is its capacity to solve the problems which originated it - George Dantzig

            Comment


            • #21
              RCT instead of ABA design

              Hi Diane,
              If you really want to prove causality ( that DNM causes a reduction in symptoms) you should do a double blind randomized controlled trial. Anything else including the ABA tests you talk about is pseudo-science and does not help advance the field of pain treatment.
              DNM if it is proven to work will revolutionize pain treatment and do away with lot of quackery so why not go for a conclusive proof instead of something which can be challenged by other clinicians? You are in a unique position since you alone can conduct such an RCT.

              Comment


              • #22
                Yeah, thanks for the tip.
                I won't be doing that because DNM is not a thing, it's interaction, and every time it's N=1. So what's the point?
                Diane
                www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                @PainPhysiosCan
                WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                @WCPTPTPN
                Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                @dfjpt
                SomaSimple on Facebook
                @somasimple

                "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                Comment


                • #23
                  You're much kinder than I would be Diane.

                  Someone out there (no actual name) thinks that there's still a magic bullet for pain: that some method will resolve a complaint of pain. I'm thinking that this person understands very little about how Diane operates and where she's been.

                  The word cause says a lot to me.
                  Barrett L. Dorko

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    A double blind trial of manual therapy? Good luck with that.

                    ABA designs (single-subject research) are NOT pseudoscience. You don't know what you're talking about.


                    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                    John Ware, PT
                    Fellow of the American Academy of Orthopedic Manual Physical Therapists
                    "Nothing can bring a man peace but the triumph of principles." -R.W. Emerson
                    “If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things. If language be not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot
                    be carried on to success.” -The Analects of Confucius, Book 13, Verse 3

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Hey hrishikeshvganu, don't mind the gruff-sounding comments. Their barks are worse than their bites. How about introducing yourself in the welcome forum?
                      If you can figure out a way to do randomized controlled studies on manual therapy, I'm listening.
                      Diane
                      www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                      SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                      HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                      Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                      Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                      Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                      @PainPhysiosCan
                      WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                      @WCPTPTPN
                      Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                      @dfjpt
                      SomaSimple on Facebook
                      @somasimple

                      "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                      “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                      “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                      "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                      "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        That was the individuals first post I see. Can we cut some slack here? To "tone" (if you will) of this person's first post was certainly fine by me.

                        Why bite his/her head of right off the hop? We need more people to become regulars at SS and I can't see how bitch slapping someone on post #1 is helping.

                        Sorry

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by proud View Post
                          That was the individuals first post I see. Can we cut some slack here? To "tone" (if you will) of this person's first post was certainly fine by me.

                          Why bite his/her head of right off the hop? We need more people to become regulars at SS and I can't see how bitch slapping someone on post #1 is helping.

                          Sorry
                          I totally agree and I'm not sorry. We have recently lost some of our brightest and best and we could do with new blood. I'm embarrassed to admit that I post here when newcomers are subjected to this.
                          Last edited by Jo Bowyer; 23-11-2015, 12:34 AM.
                          Jo Bowyer
                          Chartered Physiotherapist Registered Osteopath.
                          "Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,there is a field. I'll meet you there." Rumi

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            "Subjected to this"?

                            It's time to be the way we are.
                            Barrett L. Dorko

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Barrett Dorko View Post
                              "Subjected to this"?

                              It's time to be the way we are.
                              Ahem, it's my thread, in my forum.
                              Diane
                              www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                              SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                              HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                              Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                              Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                              Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                              @PainPhysiosCan
                              WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                              @WCPTPTPN
                              Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                              @dfjpt
                              SomaSimple on Facebook
                              @somasimple

                              "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                              “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                              “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                              "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                              "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Barrett Dorko View Post
                                "Subjected to this"?

                                It's time to be the way we are.
                                You can be however you want or are in your forum.
                                Diane
                                www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                                SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                                HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                                Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                                Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                                Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                                @PainPhysiosCan
                                WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                                @WCPTPTPN
                                Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                                @dfjpt
                                SomaSimple on Facebook
                                @somasimple

                                "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                                “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                                “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                                "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                                "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                                Comment

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